World Knew of Holocaust When in Progress; On Same Road Now

[jbgusa]

Originally Posted by markg91359

I consider myself pro-Israel. I support Israel and I am proud that America took the lead in 1948. to support the creation of Israel through the actions of the United Nations. I supported Israel in 1967 when it beat the pants off Syria, Egypt, and Jordan in the June War. I supported Israel in 1973 when it beat Egypt and Syria in that war. I supported Israel in 2014, when it attacked Gaza to stop idiots there from firing missiles into Israel.

So far so good.

Originally Posted by markg91359

My support for Israel isn't blind or endless though.

Israel is the only state in that area that is anything like a Western state. Basically the support should be close to absolute since Israel's enemies don't mean anything good for the West at all. We in the West are squeamish about any hint of civilian casualties. The rest of the world doesn't care. Example (from another thread and another poster):

Originally Posted by Dd714

Now let's break this down:
What happened when Poland surrendered and portions of Russia were occupied?
Germany - Killed everyone, starting with Jews, moved on to the Slavs.
What happened when portion of China were occupied
Japan - Killed everyone, raped women and children.
What happened when Germany and Japan surrendered?
US - Rebuilt. Offered Aid.

There is nothing wrong with caring about civilian casualties. There is a lot wrong with trying to force Western countries to fight with both hands tied behind their backs. That happened in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq. We were dainty, wound up losing a lot of lives, and accomplishing very little. Korea was a bit better; at least South Korea lived to become a First World country. But the others were senseless slaughters. And oh by the way, we foreswear using mercenaries so we're putting hundreds of thousand of dollars of education per soldier on the battlefield. No reason we should make ourselves suffer.

Originally Posted by markg91359

I think Israelis need to negotiate a "two-state solution" with the Palestinians.

Great idea, but negotiations require two parties. The Palestinians will not agree to a U.S.-Canada style permanent peace. They only want to live to stir the pot and kill people another day.

Originally Posted by markg91359

Doing so, would result in diplomatic recognition of Israel by most Arab states.

In whose mind? Not the Arabs.

Originally Posted by markg91359

Eventually, there will be more Palestinians than Israelis. This is a demographic fact. Israel can either commit to tighter military rule and control of Palestinians, or it can go about giving them their own state.

Maybe not, if the remaining European Jews (who in my view are doomed, with the possible exception of the U.K.) wind up in Israel. Especially if the Palestinians keep up the drumbeat of war. There may be a lot fewer Palestinians.

Originally Posted by markg91359

The UN intended for Palestinians to have their own state and that state was supposed to be in Palestine. Not in some other Arab country. Past violence between the two groups does not negate the rights of Palestinians to their own country.

That ship has sailed. The Arabs expelled their Jewish populations. Doesn't Israel have the concomitant right to do some expulsions, of people that won't accept Israeli rule under democratic conditions. Also, there are plenty of Arab states and no real distinction between "Palestinians" and other Arabs. Why should Israel keep being salami-sliced?

Originally Posted by markg91359

Palestinians on the West Bank have not behaved the same way that Palestinians in Gaza have. It is wrong to simply lump them all in the same group.

They've been a bit better. However the recent kidnappings, albeit by Hamas, occurred on the West Bank. And there have been some massacres originating from the West Bank. And recent attacks on Jewish worshipers at the Temple Mount.

Originally Posted by markg91359

One can support Israel without supporting Netanyahu and the conservative Likud Party. The fact is that I just don't like Bibi. Since he has been in office, I've seen him do nothing, but criticize this country and its President. Nothing in that statement means that if Israel were genuinely in jeopardy that I would not be among one of their first supporters.

Bibi has only criticized Obama. Obama is not the United States.

Originally Posted by markg91359

The Israel-Palestinian Conflict is not black and white. Its nuanced and the USA cannot and should not totally support one side while totally denying the other any consideration of fairness.

If everyone saw conflict that way there would be no war. Trust me, your compassion is not mutual. For example we opened our hearts and wallets to help Bangladesh independence. Have they supported the West in the U.N. or anywhere?

Originally Posted by markg91359

Finally, understanding such complexities is not anti-Semitism. Its simply using one's head.

I don't think you're an anti-Semite. But you should learn a bit more about history.

Originally Posted by Ummagumma

I agree that the two state solution is the key, however it can't happen without Palestinians accepting the legitimacy of Jewish state in return, otherwise it's not a peace but mere rearmament.

See above. Obviously we agree.