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Old 07-19-2015, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Somewhere on this 3rd rock from the sun
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Would you say Europe as a whole would have benefited or no?
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:04 PM
 
Location: NW Indiana
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Hmm...well one change might be the United States never being offered the Louisiana Purchase by Napoleon.
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:31 PM
 
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In addition to not getting the Louisiana Purchase on the U.S. side, France wouldn't have had their mail system fixed, their banking problems solved and enjoyed the prosperity that came from unification. He gets a bad rap in history books, but did some very good things, without even mentioning the public arts support (though a lot of it was centered around Napoleon.)
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Old 07-19-2015, 01:34 PM
 
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The Napoleonic Wars embroiled the entire continent of Europe into two decades of war that cost the lives of approximately 5 million. It also turned France into one of the first model police states, a pattern to follow for both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

That being said - of course these two decades of war include the Revolutionary France period that was undergoing the terror of daily guillotines, as well as wars with it's neighbors, years before he assumed power. Europe, regardless of who was in power, was in an almost constant state of war with each other and was undergoing revolutionary influences and changes that would impact the continent regardless of who was in power. Napoleon makes the history books, rightfully so, because he was just so good at what he did, and undoubtedly he was a genius. But his ultimate impact on history in my opinion is minimal. France for instance, in 1812 ended up the same as where it started in 1792 - same borders, with a monarchy in power.
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Old 07-19-2015, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on this 3rd rock from the sun
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Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
The Napoleonic Wars embroiled the entire continent of Europe into two decades of war that cost the lives of approximately 5 million. It also turned France into one of the first model police states, a pattern to follow for both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

That being said - of course these two decades of war include the Revolutionary France period that was undergoing the terror of daily guillotines, as well as wars with it's neighbors, years before he assumed power. Europe, regardless of who was in power, was in an almost constant state of war with each other and was undergoing revolutionary influences and changes that would impact the continent regardless of who was in power. Napoleon makes the history books, rightfully so, because he was just so good at what he did, and undoubtedly he was a genius. But his ultimate impact on history in my opinion is minimal. France for instance, in 1812 ended up the same as where it started in 1792 - same borders, with a monarchy in power.
But the arguments I've seen waged in favor of Naps is that he didn't start those wars(Napoleonic) and he counter attacked after being attacked by his neighbours.
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Old 07-19-2015, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Gila County Arizona
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If Aunt Eleanor had been born with testicles....She would have been Uncle Eleanor, and that would have been an awfully funny name.

In other words, how could one postulate what would have occurred.

Someone worse could have emerged from the abyss.... Or perhaps a benevolent Saint... who's to say.
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Old 07-19-2015, 04:00 PM
 
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The Holy Roman Empire would soldier on, and Austria would remain the leading German power.

France would have weakened and perhaps fragmented. The HRE might even retake some old lands from it.

With a French fragmentation, Italians would see less impetus for unification. Indeed with the French and German examples, it would increasingly look to many like "major" ethnicities could not form true nation-states, and that ultimately patriotism was a stronger force than nationalism.

Spain's Empire would play out very differently. Louisiana would likely end up in Spanish or American hands as France would be too weak to hold onto it, though Britain may have had an outside shot. Still I think you'd see a Spanish presence for two or three more decades before Louisiana and Texas play the Texas Revolution writ large. At the same time, Spanish power in South America grows, and Spain keeps sending troops to Mexico and Peru to more or less hold on to territories that are slowly becoming more and more rebellious. Spain and the U.S. go to war during or shortly after Louisiana declares its independence. During this time What we know as Texas and northern Mexico will also declare their independence. It will be a hard fought war, but with many of its American lands in open revolt and American soldiers in Florida, Cuba, and Central America Spain eventually throws up its hands. The lands of Louisiana, Florida, Cuba, Yucatan, and northern Mexico become part of the U.S. Through a complex series of treaties in which Spain acknowledges their independence provided the US annexes and pays Spain for them. Central Mexico gains independence as a a constitutional monarchy ruled by a Hapsburg. A white educated class rules over a mestizo and Indian serf populace, and they elect a unicameral legislature which can pass legislation on criminal and civil law while the monarch retains what we would call a line item veto as well as the power to declare war, print money, raise revenue through taxation, and most other government functions. The new American territories will end up favoring slavery sooner or later, and as the Kingdom of Mexico largely functions similarly to a slave nation they will end up strongly supporting a victorious CSA during the American Civil War. Central America is technically part of Spain for a while, but as American and later Confederate businessmen control most of the economy, they essentially run the place even before the CSA buys it from Spain at the turn of the century. The short lived Kingdom of Peru is essentially stillborn and is replaced by Quechua speaking Incan Catholic Republic which itself shortly devolves into a bloody multifaceted civil war before a religious movement results sweeps through all the ranks resulting in the establishment of what the rest of the world calls the Lima Papacy. A theocracy embracing a religion best described as a syncretism between remaining Incan folk beliefs, Catholicism, and craziness, it is ruled by a Pope elected from and by eunuch-priests who himself will be crucified if he remains alive at the end of his twenty year term. In reality as the Pope's lifeblood is viewed as the cure for whatever ails the state at the time few popes rule for more than a handful of years. With the Icans and Portuguese to the north, the southern half of South America is quite happy to still be part of Spain thank you very much, and with refugees from the north being resettled there, Las Malvinas are what those islands go by.
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Old 07-19-2015, 04:16 PM
 
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Why Napoleon sell Lousiana Territory to Jefferson? At least he could have kept the southern half for France. Also didn't he try to invade Mexico?

And was Napoleon considered the best general of that style and period of warfare. The early firearms era basically, where there is no armor, everyone lines up and loads their muskets and then fire at each other without cover on an open field? Also is that type of fighting commonly called Napoleonic style, thus he having given his name to it?
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Old 07-19-2015, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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What if Napoleon Bonaparte never came to power?
Then all that time I invested in reading the Horatio Hornblower and Richard Sharpe novels, would have been invested reading something else.
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Old 07-19-2015, 06:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
Why Napoleon sell Lousiana Territory to Jefferson? At least he could have kept the southern half for France. Also didn't he try to invade Mexico?

And was Napoleon considered the best general of that style and period of warfare. The early firearms era basically, where there is no armor, everyone lines up and loads their muskets and then fire at each other without cover on an open field? Also is that type of fighting commonly called Napoleonic style, thus he having given his name to it?
there wasn't easily accessible gold and silver in Louisiana so Spain and France never tried to develop it. As both nations tended to send mostly men to their colonies they needed local native women present for marriage in order to build up any population. Once you went a little north and west in Louisiana the native population was small and nomadic so settlements grew very slowly. While there were dozens of small towns in Louisiana hardly any outside New Orleans, Lafayette (then Vermillionville), and St. Louis were of any size, and many of the people in them were Americans and French Canadians who owed little allegiance to France or Spain. Basically, Napoleon only felt Louisiana was worth the effort if he also had Haiti, but the army he sent to reconquer Haiti died of mosquito borne illnesses.

France would later try to invade Mexico under Napoleon III to recover debts and make an Austrian emperor to be a French puppet.
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