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Old 07-26-2014, 10:57 AM
 
Location: London
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Originally Posted by travric View Post
The GBA would argue that with the SS shooting Jews how could they fulfill their obligations to meeting labor requirements. This would all have consequences for the production of Tigers, Panthers, nebelwerfwers etc to be used in the future for the battle. A battle in early '43 where arguably the Germans still put sheer fear into Russia. Russia was not out of the woods yet.
The final solution was only enacted in full flow once the invasion of the USSR rolled on. By early 1943 the Germans had lost. There was no way they could overcome the USSR. Soviet industry was outproducing Germany and they were also being supplied by the British and Americans. They were just holding onto dear life hoping for a miracle that occurred in France. But the angle f surprise had gone and it was war to the death.
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Old 07-27-2014, 11:16 AM
 
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Re: 'By early 1943 the Germans had lost'

You know I'd suggest that from our perspective from what we know now taking in all the information we have it looks it. But from the actions of Germany even after Stalingrad it seems they did not lock up the shop. Not for a moment did they consider throwing the war away. They actually thought they could keep prosecuting the war to kill Russia off. With Hitler running things that the show it had to keep 'going on' regardless of how some generals felt about it.
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Old 07-27-2014, 09:12 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Originally Posted by travric View Post
Re: 'By early 1943 the Germans had lost'

You know I'd suggest that from our perspective from what we know now taking in all the information we have it looks it. But from the actions of Germany even after Stalingrad it seems they did not lock up the shop. Not for a moment did they consider throwing the war away. They actually thought they could keep prosecuting the war to kill Russia off. With Hitler running things that the show it had to keep 'going on' regardless of how some generals felt about it.
Um, what other choice did they have?
They had the Siberian Tiger by the tail and didn't dare let go.

Ken
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Old 07-28-2014, 05:55 AM
 
Location: London
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travric View Post
Re: 'By early 1943 the Germans had lost'

You know I'd suggest that from our perspective from what we know now taking in all the information we have it looks it. But from the actions of Germany even after Stalingrad it seems they did not lock up the shop. Not for a moment did they consider throwing the war away. They actually thought they could keep prosecuting the war to kill Russia off. With Hitler running things that the show it had to keep 'going on' regardless of how some generals felt about it.
All top German generals knew the war was lost after Dec 1941 when the were repulsed at Moscow and the USA was fully in the war. They were relying on a hope and a prayer in prolonging the war, that their scientists would miraculously overnight come up with a wonder war winning weapon. Such was their fantasies and desperation.

Hitler "went" to Finland to met Finnish leader General Mannerheim in June 1942. Mannerheim supposed that Hitler would ask Finland for further help against the Soviets. Finland troops has stopped at the 1939 borders and did not shell Leningrad. Mannerheim knew Hitler disliked smoking intensely. He lit a cigar. Hitler continued the conversation calmly not commenting with smoke all around. Mannerheim could judge if Hitler was speaking from a position of strength or weakness. He assessed that if Hitler was in a position of strength he would have stopped Mannerheim immediately. He concluded Hitler was in a weak position and could not dictate to him and refused him. Even Hitler knew Germany was on the defensive.
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Old 07-28-2014, 06:01 AM
 
Location: London
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Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Um, what other choice did they have?
Talking peace which is unconditional surrender. But talking for a while may have had some terms attached.
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:28 AM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
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Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
Talking peace which is unconditional surrender. But talking for a while may have had some terms attached.
Sorry, but I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Can you re-phrase?

Ken
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Old 07-28-2014, 01:34 PM
 
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Re: 'Germany's 'fantasies and desperation'....

Interesting time then from '41 on when looking at the combination of the General Staff and Hitler himself running the war. In the beginning of his career Hitler did a lot of politics but as the war developed it seemed he wanted to be the 'great' General. Politics wasn't so important as moving armies on a chessboard. It was almost as if 'he'd show them' how to get victories. Curious if the staff knew how much he had disliked them though. Yet they did his bidding and maneuvering of the German armies. Looks to me the 'fantasies' of both really worked as noted to the Reich's destruction.
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:20 PM
 
Location: London
4,709 posts, read 5,062,698 times
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Originally Posted by travric View Post
Re: 'Germany's 'fantasies and desperation'....

Interesting time then from '41 on when looking at the combination of the General Staff and Hitler himself running the war. In the beginning of his career Hitler did a lot of politics but as the war developed it seemed he wanted to be the 'great' General. Politics wasn't so important as moving armies on a chessboard. It was almost as if 'he'd show them' how to get victories. Curious if the staff knew how much he had disliked them though. Yet they did his bidding and maneuvering of the German armies. Looks to me the 'fantasies' of both really worked as noted to the Reich's destruction.
Only Hitler and Mannstein approved the plan to attack France. It was a flaky gamble. It paid off beyond their wildest dreams. The greatest triumph of German military was all down to Hitler's wild gamble. He thought he could do it twice. He never. He treated his generals with contempt as only one had been with him over France.

If he had taken their advice they would never have taken France or invaded the USSR.
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