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What saved the UK from invasion wasn't an army ready to throw the Germans back into the sea but the fact that German boots could never make to British shores in the first place.
Now, while Dunkirk was certainly a shot in the arm of the public, the idea that had the BEF been annihilated, Britons everywhere would have whipped out the white flags before curling up into fetal positions is too preeposterous to require detailed refutation.
Not if you listen to Viscount Halifax or Neville Chamberlain.
What saved the UK from invasion wasn't an army ready to throw the Germans back into the sea but the fact that German boots could never make to British shores in the first place.
Now, while Dunkirk was certainly a shot in the arm of the public, the idea that had the BEF been annihilated, Britons everywhere would have whipped out the white flags before curling up into fetal positions is too preeposterous to require detailed refutation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa
Not if you listen to Viscount Halifax or Neville Chamberlain.
Please, explain what relevance Chamberlain - who was dead before the year was out, and could not have known the details of German naval capability or lack thereof (which would not be revealed in detail until after the war) or the monumental task that Overlord would demonstrate crossing the Channel to be.
Well?
As for both Chamberlain and Halifax, the movie Darkest Hour is not a documentary. I suggest you get your history from historians, not entertainment designed to make its investors money. (you might also try understanding precisely the nature of the disagreement between Churchill and, primarily, Halifax)
Better yet, please explain how the survival of the BEF somehow allowed the UK to prevail in the Battle of Britain. And how it somehow bolstered the Royal Navy, which was a match for any navy in the world at the time, and certainly more than a match for the pitiful flotilla of river barges that the Kriegsmarine intended to comprise the backbone of Sea Lion. And how German amphibious expertise was going to materialize out of nowhere.
Because of course, its rescue did nothing of the sort.
It is completely ludicrous to assert that the Germans could have invaded Britain at ANY time before or during WW2. Germany completely lacked the naval and air superiority required to even try, let alone possess the ability to move and logistically support an invasion force. The only thing that would remove the British from the war, would be the British themselves deciding that continuing was not worth it.
As for the "Miracle at Dunkirk", most would point to German hesitancy and disorganization as being the leading cause of the British success, not British tenacity and pluck. The reality is that the Germans never expected to have such great success in the Battle of France and by the time the situation at Dunkirk was unfolding, the German command system was in disarray and competing with itself. Hitler intervened to assert that he was still in control and the couple day pause gave the British just the little bit of breathing room they needed. At this point the Luftwaffe was also thoroughly exhausted and incapable of stopping the British withdrawal, regardless of the RAF presence which should have proven itself no more than a nuisance.
In hindsight the Germans saw it as a great missed opportunity and it was. If the British choose to remember German incompetence as a shining example of British determination, then so be it.
As for both Chamberlain and Halifax, the movie Darkest Hour is not a documentary. I suggest you get your history from historians, not entertainment designed to make its investors money. (you might also try understanding precisely the nature of the disagreement between Churchill and, primarily, Halifax)
If you've read books about the WWII era, you would know of Halifax's malign role. Certainly he obstructed an efforts to rescue the Jews.
What prevented Germany from invading the United Kingdowm was:
*The most powerful navy in the world (which it still was in 1940), and
*The fact that Germany had almost no amphibious capacity
To cross the Channel, Germany would have required air supremacy. They never came close to achieving it (during the Battle of Britain, German losses in men and materiel were more severe than those of the UK, the myth of the Few notwithstanding). Dunkirk had no effect on the dynamic of the RAF v. the Luftwaffe. It would have required sea supremacy, something the Kriegsmarine could never have achieved over the Royal Navy. Then it would have required considerable experience with large-scale amphibious operations as well as the appropriate equipment (the development of which would require the aforementioned experience). Again, Germany did not have these things.
Consider 1944, crossing the Channel in the other direction. The Allies had the required air and sea supremacy. They had vast experience in amphibious operations (Dieppe, Torch, Husky, island-hopping in the Pacific). They had a combined industrial base that dwarfed Germany, even including all the countries the Nazis were busy looting). And? Overlord was still considered a dicey operation that might well fail. Yet we're all supposed to believe that Germany, which possessed in 1940 none of the myriad advantages that the Allies would enjoy four years later, was going to waltz across the Channel?
Pffft!
What saved the UK from invasion wasn't an army ready to throw the Germans back into the sea but the fact that German boots could never make to British shores in the first place.
Now, while Dunkirk was certainly a shot in the arm of the public, the idea that had the BEF been annihilated, Britons everywhere would have whipped out the white flags before curling up into fetal positions is too preeposterous to require detailed refutation.
This exactly, invading a country from out to sea is notoriously difficult, it took the combined strength of all the Allies, the largest seaborne invasion force in history, complete air control and a lot of luck to successfully land on Dday and even then it was a close run thing. The Nazis were simply unable to invade the British Islands from across the channel in 1940, not unless they had complete control of the air and the seas, and even then they would have probably needed a fair bit of luck on their side. There is a reason why Britain always maintained a strong Navy, Britain used the Navy the way the Russians used Russian Winters when it comes to facing invading forces, both nations did the sensible thing in both the Second World War and the Napoleonic Wars and used what geography gave them.
This exactly, invading a country from out to sea is notoriously difficult, it took the combined strength of all the Allies, the largest seaborne invasion force in history, complete air control and a lot of luck to successfully land on Dday and even then it was a close run thing. The Nazis were simply unable to invade the British Islands from across the channel in 1940, not unless they had complete control of the air and the seas, and even then they would have probably needed a fair bit of luck on their side. There is a reason why Britain always maintained a strong Navy, Britain used the Navy the way the Russians used Russian Winters when it comes to facing invading forces, both nations did the sensible thing in both the Second World War and the Napoleonic Wars and used what geography gave them.
One additional factor was that the Germans were an occupying force in France with a resistance movement, whereas they would have had to invade the British homeland.
It is completely ludicrous to assert that the Germans could have invaded Britain at ANY time before or during WW2. Germany completely lacked the naval and air superiority required to even try, let alone possess the ability to move and logistically support an invasion force. The only thing that would remove the British from the war, would be the British themselves deciding that continuing was not worth it.
As for the "Miracle at Dunkirk", most would point to German hesitancy and disorganization as being the leading cause of the British success, not British tenacity and pluck. The reality is that the Germans never expected to have such great success in the Battle of France and by the time the situation at Dunkirk was unfolding, the German command system was in disarray and competing with itself. Hitler intervened to assert that he was still in control and the couple day pause gave the British just the little bit of breathing room they needed. At this point the Luftwaffe was also thoroughly exhausted and incapable of stopping the British withdrawal, regardless of the RAF presence which should have proven itself no more than a nuisance.
In hindsight the Germans saw it as a great missed opportunity and it was. If the British choose to remember German incompetence as a shining example of British determination, then so be it.
And equally Germany saw their victory in the Battle of France as evidence of their brilliance, rather than British and French incompetence. It depends where your bias lies. It's easy for 21st century folk to pass judgments on the war with so much information from both sides at our fingertips, but to contemporary decision makers the facts were often incomplete and contradictory. Germany didn't quite grasp how desperate the British situation was, it was also suffering from overextended supply lines, confused commanders, and had not yet defeated the main enemy, France. These are among the many factors behind the tank delay.
The entire war is full of "what ifs", Germany making mistakes certainly doesn't devalue the impressive operation to evacuate allied troops from the beaches of Dunkirk.
The British won the Battle of Dunkirk. The British BEF was only 9% of the total allied forces in France and the Low Countries. The German advance was halted in France as the British with a vastly inferior force stopped them at Arras. Some German soldiers turned and ran. Directive 13, issued by German Supreme Headquarters on 24 May 1940 stated specifically for the annihilation of the French, English and Belgian forces in the Dunkirk pocket. The Luftwaffe was ordered to prevent the escape of the British forces across the English Channel.
The German southern advance was stopped at Arras by the British with a numerically inferior force. The Germans never moved much further after. The Germans could not have taken Dunkirk, they would have been badly beaten in and around the town. The Luftwaffe was defeated over Dunkirk by the RAF with the first showing of the Spitfire en-mass. More German than allied planes were destroyed in the Dunkirk pocket. The first defeat of the Nazis in WW2 was in the air by the British over Dunkirk. Only six small warships were sunk at Dunkirk by the Germans as the the effectiveness of the Luftwaffe blunted.
The British were retreating after the French collapsed in front of them - a programme already in motion, a programme already in motion before the Germans showed up, as General Gort saw the disjointed performance of the French forces in front of him. If the French collapsed the small BEF had no hope against the large German force heading west. The French were still in front of the British when General Gort decided to take the men back to England, as he did not trust the French in a joint counter-attack. French General Wiegand held a meeting to arrange a counter-attack and never invited General Gort head of the BEF. Gort was under the command of Weigand. Gort heard of the meeting and rushed to be a part. He got there after the French and Belgians had left. He ordered the evacuation having no faith in the elderly French leaders.
All armies retreat and regroup when the need is there. There happened to be a body of water in the line of the retreat. Were they to move down the English coast and enter France further west with more men from England? The Germans did not know what was to be the next British or allied move. The Germans could not have taken Dunkirk and they tried. The British retreat operation was carried out as planned and in orderly fashion. All bridges to Dunkirk were destroyed by the allies.
The British counter-attack at Arras was with outdated Matilda 1 tanks, which only had machine guns, and a few of the brand new Matilda 2 tanks. The Germans fled in droves. In desperation the Germans turned a 88mm AA gun horizontal and it worked against the Matilda 2 - their conventional anti-tank weapons and tanks could not penetrate the tank. The Matilda 2 would roll over German gun emplacements killing the gunners. Rommel thought he had been hit by a force three times the size, which made them stop and rethink. The Germans countered with their superior numbers pushing back the British who fell back towards Dunkirk.
The British resolve and the new Matilda 2 made the Germans sit up and think about a street fight in Dunkirk against a consolidated force still with its weapons and the new Matilda 2 - the 88mm would be useless in Dunkirk streets while the Matilda 2 would be in its element, and the Matlida 2 would have easily destroyed the Panzer mk3s. The Matilda 2 could knock out any German tank at the time, while no German tank could knock it out. The Germans were expecting the Matilda 2 to be shipped over in numbers and for all they knew many were in Dunkirk. The Germans could not stop the tanks coming as the British controlled the skies with a CAP and the waters of the Channel. Not a good prospect for the Germans. A Dunkirk street fight was a fight the German troops were untrained and unequipped for and unwise to get involved in.
Von Rundstedt and von Kluge suggested to Hitler that German forces around the Dunkirk pocket cease their advance and consolidate and also to prevent an Allied break out from Dunkirk. Hitler agreed with the support of the Wehrmacht. German preoccupation rightly was with an expected attack from the fluid mainly French and some British forces to the south of the German line, not from dug-in Dunkirk which was too much of a formidable consolidated opponent, taking substantial resources to seize. The German column had Allied troops to each side and in front and there was soft marshland to the south west of Dunkirk unsuitable for tanks. If German forces had engaged in a street battle for Dunkirk, they would be vulnerable on their weak flank from the south. In short the fast moving panzers were now static; German forces attacking Dunkirk in a battle of attrition would have been largely wiped out.
The German columns were consolidating their remaining armour and the important resupply from Germany, which was slow as it was via horses, for an expected attack by the British and French from the south. The Germans attacked on a remarkably narrow front. They had over-stretched their supply lines. The Germans had no option but to stop, being more concerned at defending from the mainly French forces in the south which were viewed as a greater threat than Dunkirk. French general Weigand implemented his creation of hedgehogs to attack German lines from the sides, with success - hedgehogs were adopted post war by NATO being a part of the tactics until the 1970s.
The Germans were thinking, are the British retreating to England from Dunkirk to move down the English coast and re-enter France further south with fresh forces, including Canadians and the new Matilda 2 tanks, which they feared, and join up with the French forces there? Forces were arriving further down the coast with a number of Canadians. The British could easily do that as they controlled the Channel. This would create one large difficult to combat force. They saw the resolve of outnumbered British forces at Arras. German generals were trying to figure out what was happening. None thought that British troops would retreat to England and stay there. The British never did that sort of thing.
The Germans could divert most of their forces south and risk a Dunkirk breakout and then risk being attacked from their rear fighting on two fronts, or stay and consolidate, which they needed to do, awaiting a French/British attack from the south and use some forces and the Luftwaffe to attack Dunkirk, which they did. German forces resumed their attack on Dunkirk for 6 days and failed to seize the port.
The plan to break out of the Dunkirk Pocket using British, Belgian and French forces was abandoned as Gort had no confidence in the French. All military school studies since, knowing what the German and allied positions and situations were in 1940, have shown it would have succeeded to some degree.
The Germans were defeated at the Battle of Dunkirk. They tried militarily to seize the port but failed. Only because the British did not trust the French and moved back to England did the Germans eventually occupy the town. The Germans did not let the British get away that is misguided myth, they tried and simply could not seize Dunkirk.
So, here is the view of the hero of the Battle of the Bulge, emphasis added:
<<Patton described the terrible weather preventing .......
The hero? Patton? Please.
Patton was an average US general, like Simpson, Patch, Hodges, etc. No more. Patton was neither on the advance nor being heavily engaged at the time he turned north to Bastogne when the Germans pounded through US lines in the Ardennes. The road from Luxembourg to Bastogne saw few German forces, with Bastogne being on the very southern German flank, their focus was west. Only when Patton neared Bastogne did he engage some German armour but not a great deal at all. Patton's ride to Bastogne was mainly through US held territory. The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade was not one of the best German armoured units with about 80 tanks, while 26th Volks-Grenadier only had about 12 Hetzers, and the small element of Panzer Lehr (Kampfgruppe 901) left behind only had a small number of tanks operational. Patton did not have to smash through full panzer divisions or Tiger battalions on his way to Bastogne. In fact Patton never once faced a full strength Waffen SS panzer division nor a Tiger battalion all through WW2. Patton's armoured forces outnumbered the Germans by at least 6 to 1.
Patton faced very little German armour when he broke through to Bastogne because the vast majority of the German 5th Panzer Army had already left Bastogne in their rear moving westwards to the River Meuse. The Germans were disinterested in moving south to where Patton's forces were. The Germans were engaging forces under Montgomery's 21st Army Group with leading elements engaging the British and Americans under Montgomery's command near Dinant by the Meuse, the furthest west the German forces reached. Montgomery's armies halted the German advance and pushed them back. When breaking through to Bastogne, Patton left the 101st paras in there, when they were expecting to be relieved.
In Normandy in 1944, the panzer divisions had been largely worn down, primarily by the British and Canadians around Caen. The First US Army around St Lo then Mortain helped a little. Over 90% of German armour was destroyed by the British, who were assigned to lock horns with German armour, with US forces assign primarily and infantry role. Once again, Patton faced very little opposition in his break out in Operation Cobra performing mainly an infantry role. Nor did Patton advance any quicker across eastern France mainly devoid of German troops, than the British and Canadians did, who were in Brussels by early September seizing the vital port of Antwerp intact. This eastern dash devoid of German forces was the ride the US media claimed Patton was some sort of master of fast moving armour.
Patton repeatedly denigrated his subordinates.
In Sicily he castigated Omar Bradley for the tactics Bradley's II Corps were employing;
He accused the commander of 3rd Infantry Division, Truscott, of being "afraid to fight";
In the Ardennes he castigated Middleton of the US VIII Corps and Millikin of the US III Corps;
When his advance from Bastogne to Houffalize stalled he criticised the 11th Armoured Division for being "very green and taking unnecessary casualties to no effect";
He called the 17th Airborne Division "hysterical" in reporting their losses;
After the German attack in the Ardennes, US air force units were put under Coningham of the RAF. Coningham, gave Patton massive ground attack plane support and he still stalled. Patton's failure to concentrate his forces on a narrow front and his decision to commit two green divisions to battle without adequate reconnaissance resulted in his stall. Patton rarely took any responsibility for his own failures. It was always somebody else at fault, including his subordinates. A poor general who thought he was reincarnated. Oh, and wore cowboy guns.
Patton detested Hodges, did not like Bradley disobeying his orders and Eisenhower's orders. He also hated Montgomery, his diary is filled with bile directed towards Montgomery. About the only person he ever liked was himself.
Read Monty and Patton: Two Paths to Victory by Michael Reynolds
Patton was an average US general, like Simpson, Patch, Hodges, etc. No more. Patton was neither on the advance nor being heavily engaged at the time he turned north to Bastogne when the Germans pounded through US lines in the Ardennes. The road from Luxembourg to Bastogne saw few German forces, with Bastogne being on the very southern German flank, their focus was west. Only when Patton neared Bastogne did he engage some German armour but not a great deal at all. Patton's ride to Bastogne was mainly through US held territory. The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade was not one of the best German armoured units with about 80 tanks, while 26th Volks-Grenadier only had about 12 Hetzers, and the small element of Panzer Lehr (Kampfgruppe 901) left behind only had a small number of tanks operational. Patton did not have to smash through full panzer divisions or Tiger battalions on his way to Bastogne. In fact Patton never once faced a full strength Waffen SS panzer division nor a Tiger battalion all through WW2. Patton's armoured forces outnumbered the Germans by at least 6 to 1.
Patton faced very little German armour when he broke through to Bastogne because the vast majority of the German 5th Panzer Army had already left Bastogne in their rear moving westwards to the River Meuse. The Germans were disinterested in moving south to where Patton's forces were. The Germans were engaging forces under Montgomery's 21st Army Group with leading elements engaging the British and Americans under Montgomery's command near Dinant by the Meuse, the furthest west the German forces reached. Montgomery's armies halted the German advance and pushed them back. When breaking through to Bastogne, Patton left the 101st paras in there, when they were expecting to be relieved.
In Normandy in 1944, the panzer divisions had been largely worn down, primarily by the British and Canadians around Caen. The First US Army around St Lo then Mortain helped a little. Over 90% of German armour was destroyed by the British, who were assigned to lock horns with German armour, with US forces assign primarily and infantry role. Once again, Patton faced very little opposition in his break out in Operation Cobra performing mainly an infantry role. Nor did Patton advance any quicker across eastern France mainly devoid of German troops, than the British and Canadians did, who were in Brussels by early September seizing the vital port of Antwerp intact. This eastern dash devoid of German forces was the ride the US media claimed Patton was some sort of master of fast moving armour.
Patton repeatedly denigrated his subordinates.
In Sicily he castigated Omar Bradley for the tactics Bradley's II Corps were employing;
He accused the commander of 3rd Infantry Division, Truscott, of being "afraid to fight";
In the Ardennes he castigated Middleton of the US VIII Corps and Millikin of the US III Corps;
When his advance from Bastogne to Houffalize stalled he criticised the 11th Armoured Division for being "very green and taking unnecessary casualties to no effect";
He called the 17th Airborne Division "hysterical" in reporting their losses;
After the German attack in the Ardennes, US air force units were put under Coningham of the RAF. Coningham, gave Patton massive ground attack plane support and he still stalled. Patton's failure to concentrate his forces on a narrow front and his decision to commit two green divisions to battle without adequate reconnaissance resulted in his stall. Patton rarely took any responsibility for his own failures. It was always somebody else at fault, including his subordinates. A poor general who thought he was reincarnated. Oh, and wore cowboy guns.
Patton detested Hodges, did not like Bradley disobeying his orders and Eisenhower's orders. He also hated Montgomery, his diary is filled with bile directed towards Montgomery. About the only person he ever liked was himself.
Read Monty and Patton: Two Paths to Victory by Michael Reynolds
Apparently, some British historians still are aggrandizing Montgomery at the expense of Patton. Montgomery was charged with closing the door at the Falaise Pocket in the Battle of Normandy and he failed miserably.
I knew a couple persons who served under Patton in tank crews, and both loved the guy. Perhaps the highest mark of a commander. They believed that Patton was responsible for them surviving the war.
Patton did fight Tigers, and, as these veterans told me, the Shermans were faster and could get behind the Tigers and blast them where their armor was lighter. And, contrary to common knowledge, the U.S. Army had M36 tank killers able to take out Tigers at a long distance.
What commander in his right mind wouldn't rely on overwhelming air-to-ground support???
In addition, the U.S. Army had vastly superior artillery fully capable of destroying any opposing German tank force. This article doesn't even discuss the carpet firing of timed fuse shells, especially deadly against advancing tank forces. American artillery fire largely thwarted the vastly superior attacking German forces at Bastogne before the arrival of Patton's Third Army.
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