The End Of WW I (biggest, empire, Spanish, Russian)

[hawk55732]

Originally Posted by InchingWest

It's becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" during WWII as well. Of course history is always written by the victors and we've had almost 75 years of pro-US/anti-German propaganda to muddle our minds.

Truth is: everyone lost. Soldiers on both sides died by the tens of millions and civilians on both sides died by the tens of millions. Women were raped by the millions, particularly by our "ally" in Soviet Russia, which was a horrendous crime committed against the German people. The equally beautiful Russian people were subjected to another 4½ decades of brutal communism (which the Germans were staunchly opposed to, and which we Americans ignored): gulags, guilt-before-innocence-sham-trials, mass murder, planned starvation, etc.

The resources of generations and the labor of decades were wasted on both wars. What was the result? Mostly Whites slaughtering other Whites. It would be awful were that to ever happen again and we shouldn't glorify these two wars like we do in film and other propaganda mediums.

And for what result here in the modern era? Our cultures are rotting from within, our men weak, our women vapid and vain, and many millions strung out on drugs with tens of millions more wasting their lives away on television and obesity-inducing lifestyles. Families are crumbling, and with it our values and traditions along with our economy and our prospects. Worse still we are allowing into our countries people from cultures that have no Western tradition, do not care for us or our history or our cultural ideals and who ultimately want to kill us. Crime is increasing and our cities are crumbling ever more rapidly.

So it is indeed becoming increasingly difficult to see which side was "right".

If you cant see that Germany was in the wrong during WW2, cant help you there.

[2bpurrfect]

if you mean, we did not do everything right, well, you're probably right! now we question things like the nuking of japan, or the blanket bombing of civilians in Berlin. And we should think about it, not just be so one sided. I've met the kids of some of those victims and they were real people.
Not to mention, that the whole game of war is now exposed as something very manipulated by those who have stood to profit to some degree. At the expense of the manipulated ones. that's something we ALL need to think about.

Originally Posted by InchingWest

It's becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" during WWII as well. Of course history is always written by the victors and we've had almost 75 years of pro-US/anti-German propaganda to muddle our minds.

Truth is: everyone lost. Soldiers on both sides died by the tens of millions and civilians on both sides died by the tens of millions. Women were raped by the millions, particularly by our "ally" in Soviet Russia, which was a horrendous crime committed against the German people. The equally beautiful Russian people were subjected to another 4½ decades of brutal communism (which the Germans were staunchly opposed to, and which we Americans ignored): gulags, guilt-before-innocence-sham-trials, mass murder, planned starvation, etc.

The resources of generations and the labor of decades were wasted on both wars. What was the result? Mostly Whites slaughtering other Whites. It would be awful were that to ever happen again and we shouldn't glorify these two wars like we do in film and other propaganda mediums.

And for what result here in the modern era? Our cultures are rotting from within, our men weak, our women vapid and vain, and many millions strung out on drugs with tens of millions more wasting their lives away on television and obesity-inducing lifestyles. Families are crumbling, and with it our values and traditions along with our economy and our prospects. Worse still we are allowing into our countries people from cultures that have no Western tradition, do not care for us or our history or our cultural ideals and who ultimately want to kill us. Crime is increasing and our cities are crumbling ever more rapidly.

So it is indeed becoming increasingly difficult to see which side was "right".

[Jean-Francois]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

1917-1918

That reminds me of a comedy sketch on a Brit TV show a few years back.
A taxi driver in London was driving four Americans through central London, a married couple, late forties, and the wife’s elderly parents.
As the taxi was going around Hyde Park Corner, the younger husband said, “What’s that statue with the artillery piece on it driver?”
The driver said, “That’s the Royal Artillery Memorial, from WW1.”
The elder American said, “Oh yes, 1917 to 1918.”
The driver said, in his Cockney accent, “It might have been 1917 to 1918 for you guv, but for my grandad it was 1914 to 1918!”

By the way, your assertion that America rode to the rescue of Western Civilisation, and beat the Fascists, doesn’t go down too well over here, it doesn’t bother me too much, as I’m not entirely English, but although Europe knows it owes much to the U.S. for jumping in and finishing the job, you weren’t the only ones involved, although personally I’m glad that you did come over.

[MinivanDriver]

Originally Posted by InchingWest

It's becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" during WWII as well. Of course history is always written by the victors and we've had almost 75 years of pro-US/anti-German propaganda to muddle our minds.

Truth is: everyone lost. Soldiers on both sides died by the tens of millions and civilians on both sides died by the tens of millions. Women were raped by the millions, particularly by our "ally" in Soviet Russia, which was a horrendous crime committed against the German people. The equally beautiful Russian people were subjected to another 4½ decades of brutal communism (which the Germans were staunchly opposed to, and which we Americans ignored): gulags, guilt-before-innocence-sham-trials, mass murder, planned starvation, etc.

The resources of generations and the labor of decades were wasted on both wars. What was the result? Mostly Whites slaughtering other Whites. It would be awful were that to ever happen again and we shouldn't glorify these two wars like we do in film and other propaganda mediums.

And for what result here in the modern era? Our cultures are rotting from within, our men weak, our women vapid and vain, and many millions strung out on drugs with tens of millions more wasting their lives away on television and obesity-inducing lifestyles. Families are crumbling, and with it our values and traditions along with our economy and our prospects. Worse still we are allowing into our countries people from cultures that have no Western tradition, do not care for us or our history or our cultural ideals and who ultimately want to kill us. Crime is increasing and our cities are crumbling ever more rapidly.

So it is indeed becoming increasingly difficult to see which side was "right".

There are times when relativism is useful. And there are times when relativism is just downright wrongheaded.



Anyone who tries to make Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan the moral equivalents of the United States and Great Britain (Or even the Soviet Union, for that matter) is absolutely daft. The Allied powers did not embark on a lemminglike crusade to conquer and subjugate the world. The Allied powers did not have industrialized extermination camps. Were it not for Hitler, Tojo, and Mussolini, the world would have been at peace.

[Pilot1]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

That one might be more popular had we actually won it.

So the British were able to retake the U.S. as a colony then?

[southwest88]

Originally Posted by Aredhel

Four: WW l also marks the end of the centuries' old Ottoman Empire. And we're still dealing with the aftermath of the collapse of that empire today in the Middle East and Central Asia.

In the Middle East, it's the Sykes-Picot Agreement that directly caused a lot of misery in the World. See


Lawrence in Arabia : war, deceit, imperial folly and the making of the modern Middle East / Scott Anderson 1959 - . 940.3 ANDE, c2013, Doubleday


UK & France carved up the former Ottoman lands, without any regard for the peoples nor histories that were put together by lines on maps. & of course, UK promised the same land (Palestine/Israel) to several parties @ once - bad faith, @ the very least.

[southwest88]

Originally Posted by MinivanDriver

There are times when relativism is useful. And there are times when relativism is just downright wrongheaded.

Anyone who tries to make Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan the moral equivalents of the United States and Great Britain (Or even the Soviet Union, for that matter) is absolutely daft. The Allied powers did not embark on a lemminglike crusade to conquer and subjugate the world. The Allied powers did not have industrialized extermination camps. Were it not for Hitler, Tojo, and Mussolini, the world would have been at peace.

That's true for WWII. For WWI, however, UK & France set conditions upon Germany that ensured that Germany would be bitter & resentful for decades. The economics & politics imposed upon Germany, in retrospect, eventually gave rise to Hitler & the Nazis. US Pres. Wilson was insufficiently vicious, nor willing to throw the US' military/economic weight around to impose a rational peace upon Europe, which might have avoided - or @ least mitigated - the excesses of WWII.

& UK & France divvied up the former Ottoman Empire in the Middle East in a haphazard manner - again, with dreadful results for their posterity & the World, for that matter.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by Pilot1

So the British were able to retake the U.S. as a colony then?

I believe you have a lot of reading to do before you try and participate in a discussion about the 1812 war. The above suggests that you do not know the origins or purposes of the conflict. The US declared war, it was not a reaction to the threat of British invasion. Reconquest of the colonies was never a British goal, nor was it attempted.

[Jean-Francois]

Originally Posted by Pilot1

So the British were able to retake the U.S. as a colony then?

Yes we did, but only the north-east, from Maine down to the PA/MD line, plus Delaware, anywhere south of MD was a tad hot and humid for our English complexions in summertime.
After around 40 years, we began to sense rumblings in the South, and realising that the brown stuff was about to hit the circulatory air distribution device, we decided that you could have it back, in case someone accidentally fired a cannon in Charleston SC, at Fort Sumter, causing all kinds of problems for us in the North.
We didn’t look good in grey, (gray if you wish), or dark blue, red was our colour, (or color), so we sat that one out.

[markg91359]

Originally Posted by southwest88

That's true for WWII. For WWI, however, UK & France set conditions upon Germany that ensured that Germany would be bitter & resentful for decades. The economics & politics imposed upon Germany, in retrospect, eventually gave rise to Hitler & the Nazis. US Pres. Wilson was insufficiently vicious, nor willing to throw the US' military/economic weight around to impose a rational peace upon Europe, which might have avoided - or @ least mitigated - the excesses of WWII.

& UK & France divvied up the former Ottoman Empire in the Middle East in a haphazard manner - again, with dreadful results for their posterity & the World, for that matter.

What you refer to is, of course, the issue of reparations. One book that did a good of explaining Wilson's position on reparations and explained why his position did not prevail is Wilson by Scott Berg.

Wilson truly wanted to avoid punishing Germany for the war and instead focus on mechanisms like a League of Nations to prevent future conflicts. It was David Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister who explained why that position was problematic to Wilson. Britain, France, and many of the countries in Europe that had been involved in the war had run up large debts buying war materiel from the USA during the conflict. Those countries were in poor shape and were going to have difficulty paying their war debts back to the USA. Lloyd George told Wilson that if Germany were not made to pay reparations the Allied countries would be unable to pay their war debts to the United States. At this point, Wilson conceded that some reparations from Germany were going to be inevitable.

In an ideal world, the countries would have not insisted on reparations. However, the world that existed after World War I was a world where much destruction had occurred and many were thirsting for vengeance.

The other point that should be mentioned is that in November of 1918 and election occurred in the United States. Wilson's position in Congress was much weakened. He could not count on majority support for any treaty that ended the war. And, in fact, the Senate refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles in 1919 which would have made America a member of the League of Nations. In short, Wilson may have had most of the right ideas, but he lacked the strength to get them ratified.