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Not "people" ( the broader picture that you are trying to present here,) but very specifically PEASANTRY and specifically for the reasons I mentioned above.
Stalin died in 1953. The 60ies in Soviet Union are known for the mass movement of people from the rural areas to the cities that were rapidly growing yet again.
So peasantry are not people? Since when? People living in countryside were majority in Soviet Union. So quite a lot of people then.
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Originally Posted by erasure
"Russian propaganda" is in your head.
It's obvious that you don't know much of the subject that you are trying to discuss here.
So here it is for you to educate yourself;
"Generalplan Ost (GPO) (English: Master Plan East) was a secret Nazi German plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe.[24] Implementing it would have necessitated genocide[20] and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale to be undertaken in the European territories occupied by Germany during World War II. It would have included the extermination of most Slavic people in Europe. The plan, prepared in the years 1939-1942, was part of Adolf Hitler's and the Nazi movement's Lebensraum policy and a fulfilment of the Drang nach Osten (English: Drive towards the East) ideology of German expansion to the east, both of them part of the larger plan to establish the New Order.
The final version of the Generalplan Ost proposal was divided into two parts; the "Small Plan" (Kleine Planung), which covered actions carried out in the course of the war; and the "Big Plan" (Grosse Planung), which described steps to be taken gradually over a period of 25 to 30 years after the war was won. Both plans entailed the policy of ethnic cleansing.[14][25] As of June 1941, the policy envisaged the deportation of 31 million Slavs to Siberia.[11]
The Generalplan Ost proposal offered various percentages of the conquered or colonized people who were targeted for removal and physical destruction; the net effect of which would be to ensure that the conquered territories would become German. In ten years' time, the plan effectively called for the extermination, expulsion, Germanization or enslavement of most or all East and West Slavs living behind the front lines of East-Central Europe."
So now, when you are more familiar with the racial theories of Hitlers' Germany, to your question "how would that even be possible," all I can say is that Hitler apparently had a poor understanding of Russia.
He thought ( judging by his writing in Mein Kampf) that whatever achievements Russia had before ( in terms of technological advancements first of all,) came ( according to his thoughts) from the "Germanic uppers strata" of Tzarist Russia, and the lower segment of population was simply incapable of anything like that. So when the "Germanic upper strata" has been replaced with the "Jewish" one after the Socialist revolution, Russia was ripe for plucking. And that's where all these plans, all these theories of "mass extermination/relocation behind the Ural Mountains" were originally coming from. Hitler apparently thought that it could be easily done with the "racially inferior," mentally underdeveloped population.
What an utter rubish. I know what a general plan ost was and it was a total nonsense never implemented except for when poles were expelled from old german territories to general Poland and germans from east were brought in their place. Why were they moved and not just executed if that was the plan? They were slavs after all. And if you think that you could genocide 170 million people just like that then you are ridiculous without any kind of imagination. Do you have any idea that to genocide 170 million people is simply physically impossible? First you write about complete "destruction of civil population" and then put a text in which it is written that there would be massive deportation to Siberia? So which one is that? Who the heck do you think would like to move from Germany to live in freaking Russia? I doubt too many. Not to mention millions of people. Who would fill for those tens of million people? Just think for a little. It is simply impossible. So which one is that? Extermination, expulsion or germanization because you clearly got lost. First you write that it was meant for a total destruction of civilians and then that they would be expelled or germanized. You clearly have no idea what are you talking about, but I bet you are totally brainwashed by soviet system which was known for its brainwashing on people. One of the obvious examples is that you still think that military loses of russians were similar to other parties Do they really teach you that in Russia. That is elementary knowledge. I bet you still believe that russians did not make human waves during battle of moscow for example, yet my grandfather was there and saw it with his own eyes and saw how later other came back to rip clothes of those soldiers and leave them laying there naked. Did they teach you that? General plan Ost was never implemented except for examples of removing some polish families from territories that were taken from Germany after the great war(why weren't they killed if that was the plan) and it was never possible to implement it which is obvious for every person that is not brainwashed by soviet regime. It was also not plan of killing all russians on earth. Not only you do not know what you are talking about but you do not even have a basic imagination what is physically possible and what is not. Hitler had very high iq. Do you think he was that stupid to think that erasing of 170 millions people is so easy and physcially possible. As for Hitler being so strict to his racist theories. Do you realize that german fieldmarshal (the highest rank in german military)Erhard Milch was half jewish? Did you realize that Erich von Manstein german best commander was of kashubian, slavic origins? Bach-Zelewski was also of kashubian origins. Not to mention the huge amount of slavs that were in wehrmacht. Their origins didn't prevent them from being in german army, some even having the highest ranks. So much for Hitler's super strict racist policies.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Wut?
What don't you understand? That other poster wrote clearly that standard of living for his parents was higher as slaves in Germany than as citizens in Soviet Union? It really shows you how pathetic that country was.
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Originally Posted by erasure
So what you see there is as reminiscent of life in Tzarist Russia as it gets. ( City life actually too. Russia throughout Stalin's times was still reminiscent of Russian Empier in many ways; it all started changing only with Krushev's arrival I would guess.)
No, he was in the cities too. Absolute and utter poverty. People sleeping on people. Never seen something like that before or after. Population was as backwards as it gets. When soviet soldiers came to Poland and Germany, they were ripping off sinks and did not understand why water won't flow when they take it with them. Commanders' wifes were stealing night shirts from german women and walking with it outside taking it for luxurious dresses. Were they too village people.
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Originally Posted by erasure
We are talking about Ukrainians first of al - Western Ukrainians in particular, that used to be part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and were really not connected to the rest of Ukraine throughout history at all. (This in many ways serves as the main source of conflict and controversy controversy in today's Ukrainian disaster.)
So the SS "Galicia" Division was created in Western Ukraine was created for obvious reasons. The Eastern Ukrainians remember that very well, since they took the brunt of that war and suffered immensely as the result of it.
Initially - yes, there was some, even in "Russia proper." Some naive souls believed first German propaganda, that Germans came to "liberate Russia from Jewish bolshevik oppression," plus the country still didn't heal from the recent civil war.
But once these naive souls witnessed the treatment of civilians by Germans, the understanding of their true intentions, the bitter truth settled in.
Yeah because soviets with its starving policy were so humanitarian. Lol Unreal.
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Originally Posted by erasure
So far I have no idea what you are talking about. Do you?
You have no idea, that noone killed as many russians as Stalin did? No wonder, you thought that soviet military casualties were the same as other parties involved. They simply did not teach you that in Soviet Russia.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Of course not. World War II started not with Russia, but with German partition of Czechoslovakia, where Poland sided with Germany and sliced itself a piece in the process. How wise that decision was, the history explains. So check your facts and then come back here - I am not going to comment on the rest of your nonsense here.
Maybe You will check your facts and find out that munich agreement while not nice, did not start any military actions but Ribentropp-Molotov pact did. I know it might be hard for you to believe, because of the fact that you were raised in the most brainwashing system ever but that is really how that was.
Now the facts for you are that Russia was poor underdeveloped state in 19th century, 20th century and is still today. Its economy is pathetic for such a big country, plenty of people live in poverty.Whose fault is that? But when there are still people worshipping butchers like Stalin thinking he cared for russians even though communists were always cosmopolitans and he killed more russians than anyone else, then I do not think that it will change any time soon.
Last edited by WestPreussen; 11-28-2019 at 05:17 PM..
Maybe You will check your facts and find out that munich agreement while not nice, did not start any military actions but Ribentropp-Molotov pact did. I know it might be hard for you to believe, because of the fact that you were raised in the most brainwashing system ever but that really how that was.
If the poster above doesn't comprehend such simple thing that governments/politicians make their next move on a basis of observations of what took place PRIOR to their decision, what's there is to talk about? I mean it's what? A kindergarten level or what?
As for your thread, I don't understand quite honestly the concept of "Russia's contribution to Western civilization."
Russia is a much younger nation than the "Western civilization" ( that is when we are talking about "Western Europe," since America/Canada/Australia while being part of Western civilization, are basically only later offshoots of it.)
And for this reason alone it's actually the OTHER WAY around; "Contribution of Western civilization to Russia in the course of the development of modern Russian state" -that's what more logical.
Why Russia has to "contribute to Western civilization" is not clear to me in the first place.
If the poster above doesn't comprehend such simple thing that governments/politicians make their next move on a basis of observations of what took place PRIOR to their decision, what's there is to talk about? I mean it's what? A kindergarten level or what?
The kindergarten is your reasoning. By that logic of observations of what took place before you can excuse absolutely everything. The facts are simple for you. Soviet Union made a pact with Nazis in order to divide Europe. They invaded Poland. They were allies of nazis and supplied them for quite a while. They were aggressors not victims.
Their actions post war showed exactly their true colours and proved their intentions from the beginning and there is a reason why every country in Europe who was in soviet block absolutely despise Russia. They have already wasted almost 50 years of development because of this country.
Last edited by WestPreussen; 11-28-2019 at 05:18 PM..
If the poster above doesn't comprehend such simple thing that governments/politicians make their next move on a basis of observations of what took place PRIOR to their decision, what's there is to talk about? I mean it's what? A kindergarten level or what?
I think WestPreussen summed it up beautifully:'
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Originally Posted by WestPreussen
There is not any hope and never will be. Those people have always excuses for their state of being and it never have anything to do with their own actions. Most people are poor and meanwhile Putin is one of the richest people in the world and Moscow has 68 billionaires. People are happy because they hear that others fear Russia. It does not matter that wages are low, that average people cannot afford lots things that are obvious in the west, and alcoholism is considered normal thing. What matters is that someone somewhere might fear Russia. That is absolutely not excusable how country with so much resources and potential is so poor. Even though they are the most popolous country in Europe, their economy as a whole is even behind Italy, much smaller, not even that rich country by european standarts.
It does not matter what system it is that mentality will always stay. It will definitely not change in our lifetime.
What you're saying if that Molotov should not be held responsible for taking one of his flaming cocktails to the West and basically causing some of the world's worst carnage.
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Originally Posted by erasure
As for your thread, I don't understand quite honestly the concept of "Russia's contribution to Western civilization."
Russia is a much younger nation than the "Western civilization" ( that is when we are talking about "Western Europe," since America/Canada/Australia while being part of Western civilization, are basically only later offshoots of it.)
And for this reason alone it's actually the OTHER WAY around; "Contribution of Western civilization to Russia in the course of the development of modern Russian state" -that's what more logical.
Why Russia has to "contribute to Western civilization" is not clear to me in the first place.
Russia is not younger than the U.S. I don't understand your point. When those "offshoots" opened for business smarter, more motivated Russians couldn't get out of there fast enough. Except when your darling, Stalin and his successors wouldn't let people leave.
The kindergarten is your reasoning. By that logic of observations of what took place before you can excuse absolutely everything. The facts are simple for you. Soviet Union made a pact with Nazis in order to divide Europe. They invaded Poland. They were allies of nazis and supplied them for quite a while. They were aggressors not victims.
Their actions post war showed exactly their true colours and proved their intentions from the beginning and there is a reason why every country in Europe who was in soviet block absolutely despise Russia. They have already wasted almost 50 years of development because of this country.
You can stop right there. I already knew what this was all about.
Yet another attempt to re-write the history.
But before doing that, you need to remember two things;
Number one - it was Stalin who insisted on Nuremberg trial, not the allies. ( The allies wanted just to hang the leaders of the Nazi party and to be done with it.)
Stalin however was wiser; he could probably foresee those later attempts to re-write what REALLY took place, and so he wanted to "put everything in writing," so it would be much more difficult to those who would wish with time to "twist and turn" history more to their liking.
So that's number one.
And number two - truth to be told, Poland is too weak as a nation; in Europe, it was always about such spiritually powerful nations as Germany and Russia.
True that Poland has been used by Catholic Church initially, and later by Anglo-Saxons to contain Russia, however when it comes to major world events, Poland was stepped over by everyone, because it takes Russians and THEIR determination to decide the destiny of the world, not Poland.
I think WestPreussen summed it up beautifully:'What you're saying if that Molotov should not be held responsible for taking one of his flaming cocktails to the West and basically causing some of the world's worst carnage. Russia is not younger than the U.S. I don't understand your point. When those "offshoots" opened for business smarter, more motivated Russians couldn't get out of there fast enough. Except when your darling, Stalin and his successors wouldn't let people leave.
Russia ( as civilization) is much younger than Western European countries.
I don't see the US as anything different than the offshoot of the British Empire to be honest.
P.S. Stalin is not my "darling" - I just prefer to look at things in more objective manner, not childish ways of my personal "likes and dislikes," when it comes to history.
You can stop right there. I already knew what this was all about.
Yet another attempt to re-write the history.
But before doing that, you need to remember two things;
Number one - it was Stalin who insisted on Nuremberg trial, not the allies. ( The allies wanted just to hang the leaders of the Nazi party and to be done with it.)
Stalin however was wiser; he could probably foresee those later attempts to re-write what REALLY took place, and so he wanted to "put everything in writing," so it would be much more difficult to those who would wish with time to "twist and turn" history more to their liking.
So that's number one.
And number two - truth to be told, Poland is too weak as a nation; in Europe, it was always about such spiritually powerful nations as Germany and Russia.
True that Poland has been used by Catholic Church initially, and later by Anglo-Saxons to contain Russia, however when it comes to major world events, Poland was stepped over by everyone, because it takes Russians and THEIR determination to decide the destiny of the world, not Poland.
To rewrite history? These are well known facts. And I am sure americans and british would make sure that crimes of germans would be remembered. They lost a lot of people to Germans not as many as Soviet Union, not even close of course, but neverthless. British to this day sometimes boo german anthem, even though they are friends now. People do not forget that quickly.
If you try to hurt my feelings by calling Poland weak, then I have to tell you that I do not really like Poland that much. But come on, no way would poles let some guy kill tens of millions of them and still hold him in high regard, let him starve millions to death and hold him in high regard. And I got to say that collaboration of poles with nazis was absolutely minimal compared to other occupied nations like russians or ukrainians.
And I think it is not nice to say that about poles considering they are the only ones in modern history to conquer russian capital.
As for Russians deciding worlds' fate. Sorry, those terrible times are gone. America beat you. Time to wake up. Your economy is about the same as that of Spain and it does not look that it will change anytime soon. Your days of being a global superpower are finished.
To rewrite history? These are well known facts. And I am sure americans and british would make sure that crimes of germans would be remembered. They lost a lot of people to Germans not as many as Soviet Union, not even close of course, but neverthless. British to this day sometimes boo german anthem, even though they are friends now. People do not forget that quickly.
If you try to hurt my feelings by calling Poland weak, then I have to tell you that I do not really like Poland that much. But come on, no way would poles let some guy kill tens of millions of them and still hold him in high regard, let him starve millions to death and hold him in high regard. And I got to say that collaboration of poles with nazis was absolutely minimal compared to other occupied nations like russians or ukrainians.
And I think it is not nice to say that about poles considering they are the only ones in modern history to conquer russian capital.
It's not about "niceties" - it's about history.
And precisely because of this particular event ( barring France's Napoleon) ( and some other events involving Poland back in history,) - it's precisely THIS what led Russians ( or rather Stalin) to "partition of Poland" early in the war. And it's THIS that brought Katyn's massacre a bit later.
Stalin didn't want ANY chances of Poland being involved in any independent capacity in WWII, since ( by Russian political and military historic experience) it could be used again by other major powers against Russian interests.
But it takes some knowledge of history ( and ability to follow the logical chain of events) to understand what leads to what.
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As for Russians deciding worlds' fate. Sorry, those terrible times are gone. America beat you. Time to wake up. Your economy is about the same as that of Spain and it does not look that it will change anytime soon. Your days of being a global superpower are finished.
You need to wake up and to look around a bit.
"Economy" is not the only factor that decides who rules what. The alliances, the weaponry, the geopolitical outlook, the debts, the internal strength of systems - those are all factors that decide it.
The simple difference is Hitler invaded over twenty Countries in Europe, and Africa. Many of those countries he committed Genocide and slavery. Stalin killed his own people he never invaded any other countries with exception of Poland. What was Hitlers plans to annihilate the Jewish people and other people, was it possible not likely he came close. If you watch this video can clearly see the number of people killed in WW2 by country it adds up fast most were caused by Hitler.
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Not to mention millions of people. Who would fill for those tens of million people? Just think for a little. It is simply impossible. So which one is that? Extermination, expulsion or germanization because you clearly got lost. First you write that it was meant for a total destruction of civilians and then that they would be expelled or germanized. You clearly have no idea what are you talking about, but I bet you are totally brainwashed by soviet system which was known for its brainwashing on people. One of the obvious examples is that you still think that military loses of russians were similar to other parties
