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The people had already figured out how to survive on low food stocks? So many people in Leningrad (St. Petersburg) were dying of starvation and starvation-related illness, that bodies had to be bulldozed into mass graves stretching for blocks. (They're still there, and there's a memorial hall on the site, with photos of the times, in case any history buffs might be interested in actually visiting and seeing it.) The country was having trouble getting food to its troops, the troops were ill-equipped to withstand the winter conditions, and lacked training. Rumor has it, that generals back in Moscow were making poor decisions, being out of touch with the true conditions on the front.
What Russia had going for it was the sheer determination of the populace, plus a population that was used to Russian winters, which the Germans were not. Whether those two things would have been enough for them to win on their own, I'm not qualified to say. I'm not sure anyone is. These threads about second-guessing history and "what if", always seem so speculative to me, as to be pointless. But I guess for some, it's kind of fun to bat around some ideas.
Leningrad is not a good example.
The residents there were starving not due to a lack of food in the USSR - those citizens were dying due to the German troops blockade of Leningrad
Russians were able to deliver supplies to Leningrad only in winter - over the thin ice of the Ladoga Lake and only over a very limited time frame due to a short duration of the ice cover on the lake
Both civilians and the military showed heroic efforts, determination to survive and to prevail.
The second front was opened by allies only in response to a great advance of the Red Army into Europe.
“The severe Russian winter” excuse for a German defeat is historically ridiculous: as if the Red Army soldiers and their weapons has had a different climate over them at that time?
A lot of Russian soldiers were from the hot deserts and steppes areas - they were even less so used to the winters in European part of Russia than Germans.
European part of Russia is not as cold as some other parts- just very lame excuse for the defeat of Germany.
In spite of the recent ”re-writing of the history” by the Hollywood-and portraying the US army and its so called “battles”on the Western front as the major force - it was a joke compare to what was happening on the Eastern Front.
Last edited by L00k4ward; 07-14-2021 at 11:30 AM..
It's interesting, how general diplomatic courtesy speech is considered solid political value. Ironic. Yet, the US had HUGE investments in the growing USSR economy. Ford, as one example.
It is even more ironic to put Khrushchev and Stalin into the same quote, as shoe striker was Stalin's about worst enemy and Trotskist. He was snake on Stalin's chest.
Anyhow. Where were Red Army troops, when the 2nd front was opened? Poland, closing on German boarder? Steamrolling German troops? Allies HAD TO open the 2nd Front to secure at least some Europe leftover or, Red Army would have stopped at the End of the World. It was more of the socialism spread deterrent, than fighting already dead enemy.
I tend to give the Soviet Union much more credit than we sometimes give them in American history books because of the soviets causing 8/10 German casualties and being locked into head to head combat to the death with Germany…(the hour of revenge has struck. Do not count days. Do not count miles. Count ONLY, the number of Germans you have killed. Kill the German. That is the cry of your Russian earth. Kill the German)
However…
Wouldn’t part of the reason the Russia front was advancing be because the Americans and British cut off Germany’s oil and were bombing its factories and cities into ash on the “backend”? Not to mention, the threat of looming invasion caused them to hold troops in reserve.
By 1943, bombings were up 25 fold. The British by night…and the Americans in broad daylight.
You can see it in the writing of citizens. “Above. Below. Behind. Hell has broken loose. There had been air raids before….but not like this….”
After bomber runs, they’d return with another run of tens of thousands of warning leaflets. “We are coming. By day, and by night. City by city and ever more terribly. Let the nazis drag you down to disaster with them if you will. That is for you decide.”
And Churchill, “German cities will be subjected to the like of which has never been experienced in continuity, severity, and magnitude. There are no lengths of violence to which we will not go.”
Last edited by Thatsright19; 07-14-2021 at 12:08 PM..
I'm talking about the military/food etc deliveries whilst the USSR was battling the Nazis during Barbarossa. Would they have eventually righted the ship on their own and driven the Germans from their territory and ended up in Berlin or would they have succumbed?
What if the Japanese were not tied down with the Americans, and opened up a second front in the Soviet Union? What if the Soviet Union wasn’t able to move its well trained, equipped Siberian divisions (used to absolute brutal cold) out of the east, to the gates of Moscow?
What if the Japanese were not tied down with the Americans, and opened up a second front in the Soviet Union? What if the Soviet Union wasn’t able to move its well trained, equipped Siberian divisions (used to absolute brutal cold) out of the east, to thow?
Stalin was ready for that event, some million of equipped Soviet troops were kept in Manchuria untouched.
there are different opinions on this, some think (claiming archive documents) that Stalin was ready to strike first but Hitler began a few days, weeks earlier.
there are different opinions on this, some think (claiming archive documents) that Stalin was ready to strike first but Hitler began a few days, weeks earlier.
That is incorrect.
According to the archives Stalin’s appeasement of Germany regarding Poland and Baltic states was absolutely due to the fact that Soviet Union was aware that the Germany would attack.
Russians had intelligence from the German insiders.
The Russians were desperately trying to strengthen their new borders ( which were the same as their old ones before the World War I ) after the Ribbentrop pact.
Russia just was coming out of their own 5 year long Civil War and ruins.
They were not ready nor they wanted to fight anyone.
The people had already figured out how to survive on low food stocks? So many people in Leningrad (St. Petersburg) were dying of starvation and starvation-related illness, that bodies had to be bulldozed into mass graves stretching for blocks. (They're still there, and there's a memorial hall on the site, with photos of the times, in case any history buffs might be interested in actually visiting and seeing it.) The country was having trouble getting food to its troops, the troops were ill-equipped to withstand the winter conditions, and lacked training. Rumor has it, that generals back in Moscow were making poor decisions, being out of touch with the true conditions on the front.
What Russia had going for it was the sheer determination of the populace, plus a population that was used to Russian winters, which the Germans were not. Whether those two things would have been enough for them to win on their own, I'm not qualified to say. I'm not sure anyone is. These threads about second-guessing history and "what if", always seem so speculative to me, as to be pointless. But I guess for some, it's kind of fun to bat around some ideas.
I based my comments about food stocks in the USSR upon a book I had read - The Taste of War: World War 2 and the Battle for Food by Lizzie Colingham. She analyzed the food production and distribution capabilities of the eight major combatants (Germany, British Empire, France, Italy, USSR, Japan, China, and the US) and on the military vs civilian food situation for each of those combatants.
Of the USSR, Colingham points out that the Soviet Union had already survived a famine in the 1930's, brought about by forced collectivization of farming. The Russian civilians in the 30's learned how to eat things that wouldn't normally be considered food - nettles, thistles, and barks gleaned from fields and made into soups, the proper way to butcher, cook, and serve horse, dog, rat, etc.
When the USSR was attacked by Germany in 1940, the Russian populace was made up of the survivors of the famine. The first year or two, all of the normal food went to feed the frontline troops but it was mostly canned goods without much variety and also rationed. The civilian population fell back on their nettle and rat soups. And the nice thing about potatoes is that some of the potatoes survive an army marching over the fields where they are planted.
When Lend Lease supplies finally started reaching the Soviets, the American army rations went straight to the Soviet soldiers, and the canned food stocks started dribbling down to the civilian population. But it wasn't like the Russian civilians had it easy - many did die from starvation, but most survived to work in the fields and the defense plants, supporting the war effort.
According to the archives Stalin’s appeasement of Germany regarding Poland and Baltic states was absolutely due to the fact that Soviet Union was aware that the Germany would attack.
Russians had intelligence from the German insiders.
The Russians were desperately trying to strengthen their new borders ( which were the same as their old ones before the World War I ) after the Ribbentrop pact.
Russia just was coming out of their own 5 year long Civil War and ruins.
They were not ready nor they wanted to fight anyone.
i agree with that version: Soviets had intelligence information that Germans would attack.
Germans were afraid that Russia may attack Ploesti - German main oil supply, and it was very possible, while England an France had their fool steam plan to attack Soviet Baku Oil (operation Pike) - Stalin knew about that too.
Problem is that no one have access to full archives.
A lot of Soviet troops were moving from East and were not really unloaded especially tanks, artillery. ammo...not ready. but it has nothing to do with Civil War , it was long in the past by 1941. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sorge
Last edited by G.Duval; 07-14-2021 at 01:56 PM..
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