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The government knew they were both guilty by the Venona decryptions and she was in it. The government couldn't expose their program in court because that would have exposed it to the Soviets in a war, We were in a Cold War and Korean War. So they prosecuted them on weak evidence to the public but they knew they were guilty as hell. In 2009 the KGB archives proved it. The KGB considered Julius Rosenberg an effective agent and his wife Ethel an enthusiastic supporter of his work.According to KGB Archives, Julius and Ethel worked personally with KGB agents who were given the code names Twain and Callistratus and were also described as being the ones who recruited Greenglass and McNutt for the Manhattan Project spy mission. Though the public release of KGB archives did not occur until 2009, in fact it was originally intercepted during the Verona decryptions. The U.S. knew they were guilty as hell but didn't want to show their hand in a civilian trial and expose what they knew and how they got it to the Soviets but the fact is both weren't innocent. She had a chance to confess and get 30 years and be out in half and she refused because she wasn't sorry and believed in her cause and both were lying as hell and making the U.S. the villain.
The government in this case was like a parent that knows you are guilty and lying but is not going to tell you how they know completely but for you to confess and say what you know and take the punishment and if you keep lying to us and to the world making us look like the bad people We will make the punishment harder and the U.S. did.
If you are arrested and are guilty, stop digging yourself in the hole and stop lying because if this goes to trial this will be much worse. They should have pleaded guilty and taken a plea deal and saved their lives. She would have received 30 years and be out in half. They did 2 mistakes, being a spy under war and making the U.S. look like liars and criminals and paint themselves like angels.
We read and interpret based on our preconceptions and experiences. People read the same words and have different interpretations of the words.
The past is prologue and history is written by the winners.
People can have a pretense of being totally neutral but I don't believe that is possible. We assimilate information into our brains and sort it based on what's already stored there.
I disagree. That's why I love the movie The Caine Munity (1954) because it shows you things are not what it seems. By the Venona decryptions that came to light in the 90's shows the government knew both were guilty as hell but since they were civilians and couldn't try them by military court and not expose the counterintelligence program and our double agents in the Soviet Union which verified they were guilty as hell they went for a weak evidence in a civilian court and flipped 1 witness.
What surprised the government was how these people doubled down in the lie and get worldwide support and sympathy by making the system into a joke. I feel sorry for their sons that they left without a family because of their crime and ego and people still making money on books trying to convince of their innocence. It's a sad story.
To keep saying she was innocent after the fact when she was part of her husband's crime when both got KGB code names Twain and Callistratus by the Soviet Union shows how guilty they were. That's why President Eisenhower who was a moderate President refused to spare the sentence because he got all the evidence by the Venona decryptions in how guilty they were and how they doubled down on the crime when they were offered a plea that would have kept them alive and they kept shifting the blame on the U.S. when they knew what they did.
You have to understand Eisenhower. He was a General in WW 2 and saw many Americans and allies paid the ultimate sacrifice to fight the same ruthless enemy as the Soviet Union and for these 2 traitors selling out the country and make the enemy bolder putting more lives on the line during the Cold War and Korea War and then doubled down in their arrogance and lie, his decision was easy and he slept well at night.
I feel bad for a bunch of people including the 2 kids but not them. All they had to do is confess and they would have died of old age.
Last edited by SanJuanStar; 10-11-2022 at 07:38 PM..
You have to understand Eisenhower. He was a General in WW 2 and saw many Americans and allies paid the ultimate sacrifice to fight the same ruthless enemy as the Soviet Union and for these 2 traitors selling out the country and make the enemy bolder putting more lives on the line during the Cold War and Korea War and then doubled down in their arrogance and lie, his decision was easy and he slept well at night.
I feel bad for a bunch of people including the 2 kids but not them. All they had to do is confess and they would have died of old age.
A thinking person cannot consider the Rosenberg situation without coming to grips with the context:
This was part of the communist scare period and it definitely involved anti-semitism both as to the defendants and as to a judge trying to show impartiality in a profession hostile to Jews. They were guilty but did not deserve execution.
A thinking person cannot consider the Rosenberg situation without coming to grips with the context:
This was part of the communist scare period and it definitely involved anti-semitism both as to the defendants and as to a judge trying to show impartiality in a profession hostile to Jews. They were guilty but did not deserve execution.
and the people that died because of the Soviet aggression deserved to die? This is no different than aiding the Nazis while our men were dying in the battlefield and the endless civilians caught in the middle.
The US government offered to spare their lives provided the names of other spies and they admitted their guilt. They made a public statement: "By asking us to repudiate the truth of our innocence, the government admits its own doubts concerning our guilt ... we will not be coerced, even under pain of death, to bear false witness".
Let's be honest, they pushed it. They were not victims here even if you disagree with the punishment.
The OP's description is pretty good.
However, I think the relative timing of the various spies getting caught should be more clear.
Klaus Fuchs (British scientist) had joined the Comunist party in 1933, and began passing atomic bomb secrets in 1942 or 1943.
Harry Gold did not join the communist party. He began as an industrial spy in 1934 by passing industrial secrets to the Soviets, but was recruited by the NKVD in 1940.
The Rosenbergs had joined the Young Communist league in the late 1930's, and were recruited as spies in 1942.
Greenglass joined the Young Communist league in 1943. They (and Russell McNutt) were recruited by the Rosenbergs in 1944
Klaus Fuchs was caught by the British.
Klaus Fuchs confessed and gave names and details, and one of them was Harry Gold in America.
Harry Gold confessed and gave up the names of contacts and among these was the Greenglass couple.
The Greenglasses confessed and gave up Rosenberg and others; the Greenglasses had been recruited by the Rosenbergs.
The Rosenbergs denied everything and claimed they were innocent.
Greenglass testified against the Rosenbergs.
Harry Gold testified against the Rosenbergs.
What I don't get about all this was why the Rosenbergs claimed they were innocent when they had been spying for years and had supplied thousands of documents to the Soviets. And they knew they had been caught with the confessions of other spies in the ring.
As for being executed, the Rosenbergs refusal to cooperate after being caught is a clear statement of loyalty to the Soviet Union, so if anyone is ever going to be executed for espionage, that would be the ones you hang. Surely they could see that.
As for being executed, the Rosenbergs refusal to cooperate after being caught is a clear statement of loyalty to the Soviet Union, so if anyone is ever going to be executed for espionage, that would be the ones you hang. Surely they could see that.
That's the key. The government knew they were guilty as hell and the Venona files proved it plus We had our own agents inside the Kremlin to confirmed it and still they kept putting on a show and lying and made a mockery out of our nation while our boys were getting killed in the Korean War and in deep with the Soviets in the nuclear cold war. Remember, 7 years earlier We lost a lot of Americans to defeat the Nazis and Japan. Smoking these 2 traitors to make an example after what the country went through in 12 years was an easy decision. President Eisenhower didn't lose any sleep. He lived and saw how many young boys died in WW 2 and the Korean War and the many American mothers were left without their sons and husbands to defeat our enemies. Why should he spared these 2 traitors when they had no remorse and were lying all the way to the chair?
Over 450,000 Americans were killed between 1941 to 1952 fighting our enemies and that's just Americans. Smoking these 2 traitors wasn't a stretch. The U.S. made an example out of the 2.
I was watching Saving Private Ryan again last night and the sacrifices our boys made to defeat the enemy and the part when they come to the house of the mother to tell her that her 3 sons died in the war and she fell to her knees when the father got out of the Army car because she knew what was coming it's a very strong moment. I don't feel sorry for these 2 getting smoked. They had a choice.
You sellout your country when our boys are in harm's way and you doubled down on lies after getting caught you deserve to get smoked.
Last edited by SanJuanStar; 10-21-2022 at 09:47 PM..
I disagree. That's why I love the movie The Caine Munity (1954) because it shows you things are not what it seems. By the Venona decryptions that came to light in the 90's shows the government knew both were guilty as hell but since they were civilians and couldn't try them by military court and not expose the counterintelligence program and our double agents in the Soviet Union which verified they were guilty as hell they went for a weak evidence in a civilian court and flipped 1 witness.
What surprised the government was how these people doubled down in the lie and get worldwide support and sympathy by making the system into a joke. I feel sorry for their sons that they left without a family because of their crime and ego and people still making money on books trying to convince of their innocence. It's a sad story.
To keep saying she was innocent after the fact when she was part of her husband's crime when both got KGB code names Twain and Callistratus by the Soviet Union shows how guilty they were. That's why President Eisenhower who was a moderate President refused to spare the sentence because he got all the evidence by the Venona decryptions in how guilty they were and how they doubled down on the crime when they were offered a plea that would have kept them alive and they kept shifting the blame on the U.S. when they knew what they did.
You have to understand Eisenhower. He was a General in WW 2 and saw many Americans and allies paid the ultimate sacrifice to fight the same ruthless enemy as the Soviet Union and for these 2 traitors selling out the country and make the enemy bolder putting more lives on the line during the Cold War and Korea War and then doubled down in their arrogance and lie, his decision was easy and he slept well at night.
I feel bad for a bunch of people including the 2 kids but not them. All they had to do is confess and they would have died of old age.
I don't disagree with most of what you say. I think the Rosenbergs" were clearly guilty and I had heard about Venona. Nikita Khruschev conceded in his memoirs that he had spoken to Stalin about the Rosenbergs' and Stalin acknowledged to him that the two were Soviet agents.
The evidence presented at the trial was stronger than most people think. It relied heavily on the testimony of David and Ruth Greenglass. However, Greenglass was able to point to some things that corroborated his testimony. For example, he testified that Julius Rosenberg gave him money to flee the country when he realized the FBI was investigating him. Greenglass could point to a bank deposit in that same amount that he made shortly thereafter. A man named Elitcher testified that he was involved in espionage for the Soviets and had dropped off microfilm to Julius Rosenberg because Rosenberg was part of the conspiracy. A cleaning lady who had cleaned the Rosenberg's apartment testified that there was a piece of furniture in the apartment that was high quality and always kept in a closet out of view. David Greenglass had previously testified that this same piece of furniture was used to photograph stolen documents. Finally, co-conspirator Morton Sobell who was sentenced to prison following the trial many years later admitted that he had been guilty of espionage despite his previous claims of innocence.
The issue I have is whether the death sentence was appropriate. At the time these acts were committed the Soviet Union was not an enemy of the USA it was an ally. I think the country might have been better served by keeping the Rosenbergs' alive and hoping that someday they might have talked. The trial occurred during the height of hysteria during the Cold War. I think if it had occurred at another time it is far more likely that they would have been given a prison sentence rather than the death penalty. In fact, in 1957 in the Rudolph Abel case. Abel was a Russian spy and received a 30 year prison sentence instead of the death penalty this later made it possible for us to exchange Abel for our U2 pilot, Francis Gary Powers.
The issue I have is whether the death sentence was appropriate. At the time these acts were committed the Soviet Union was not an enemy of the USA it was an ally. I think the country might have been better served by keeping the Rosenbergs' alive and hoping that someday they might have talked. The trial occurred during the height of hysteria during the Cold War. I think if it had occurred at another time it is far more likely that they would have been given a prison sentence rather than the death penalty. In fact, in 1957 in the Rudolph Abel case. Abel was a Russian spy and received a 30 year prison sentence instead of the death penalty this later made it possible for us to exchange Abel for our U2 pilot, Francis Gary Powers.
I agree, maybe if We were at peace time they would have not received the death penalty but you have to put the time under perspective. At the end of WW 2, Truman and many Allies didn't trust the Soviets. Even General Paton didn't trust them and that We were heading into collision with them. That's the reason Truman had a short window to make Japan surrender after the Soviets declared war on them on August/1945. He didn't want the Soviets in Japan or share Japan with them.
The Rosenberg can't be excuse that they gave their loyalty to the Soviet Union and put the world in a bad spot in the the Cold war.
But from 1941 to 1952, over 450,000 Americans died fighting overseas and that's just Americans. Smoking them 2 to make an example didn't bother much Eisenhower or the government. The Rosenberg overplayed their hand and forced the government to execute them. President Eisenhower could have stop the execution and he didn't because he saw too many Americans and allies deaths during a 12 year window and what they did was treason at the highest levels and the Rosenbergs were lying their a$$es off and making the government the bad guy.
The US government offered to spare the lives of both Julius and Ethel if Julius provided the names of other spies and they admitted their guilt. The Rosenbergs made a public statement: "By asking us to repudiate the truth of our innocence, the government admits its own doubts concerning our guilt ... we will not be coerced, even under pain of death, to bear false witness".
The government couldn't go back and look weak in front of the Soviets and the world. At the time and under the circumstances, the government had to smoke them. The Rosenberg forced their hand. That's why President Eisenhower didn't stop the execution and slept like a baby. Too many great Americans died from 1941 to 1952 to give the Rosenberg better consideration over our soldiers.
You have to put yourself inside the head of President Eisenhower. He had to send great Americans to die in the preparation of D-DAY in WW 2 . He met a lot of them and prayed for them to sacrifice the ultimate price for the country that many died for him 7 years later commute these 2 traitors from death when they forced his hand and complicated the Cold War and the Korean War that our soldiers were fighting and dying. President Eisenhower saw too many deaths in his lifetime to lose sleep for smoking these 2. It wasn't a tough decision for him unless he was thinking about re-election in 1956 which he didn't.
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