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Old 11-15-2010, 04:56 PM
 
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I have a coal fired or charcoal fired fired forge but no place to set it up, and building a shed currently is verbotten.

But a gas fired forge is ok.

I have spent some time looking on the net at some, but have no one to bounce ideas off. Anyone here ever mess about with one?

I would like to make knives with it, not overly large nothing longer than 9 inch counting the grips.

Other smaller items related to the 18th and 19th centuries as well, like blanket pins, and pot hooks are a gimmie in a little forge.
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Columbia, California
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I have only owned electric kilns. I have a nice one with a 12 x 12 x 12 interior. 30 years or so back we used gas kilns when I was taking classes making knives. The ones at the college were pottery kilns, that might be a point to search with. I used to have a pallet load of fire brick but they have been gone for years.
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Old 11-16-2010, 09:58 AM
 
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I was reading about an 8 brick forge. That's it 8 bricks, and a bright white insulation marterial at that, not really refractory brick. I don't know what it is called or where to get it.

It looks like white styrofoam, isn't AS light weight, but lots lighter than real fire brick.

My basic problem is everything.

I have never used gas much (propane) and other than to buy a BBQ bottle of gas I have to create every part, all the fittings are un-familar and building a burner from 3/4 inch water pipe which would be galvinized untill toasted reall good.

A poor man project at best, until at least making any thing really does show a profit. I could make 12 knives and they could take forever to sell in a sporting goods shop designed for the young.

Every one these days is hyped intto stainless steels, and I would be using O1, L2, W1, which are all carbon steels. I might use A1 but don't really care for air hardening steels.

My favorite steel is old rusty files. I can move the tang over to one side, hammer it out tapered and longer, roll a bead eye on the tip and form a shepards hook as the last 2 fingers on the slab grips.

Spinning that old electric dial for this and my little bits, would be cost prohibitive big time.
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Old 11-16-2010, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Columbia, California
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I have used A1 and oil quenched it.
A friend of mine used a barbeque for tempering. He even used the bbq for lost wax casting.
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Old 11-16-2010, 06:35 PM
 
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What controll do you get quenching A-1 with oil? This is to harden or to temper?

Do you use a magnet to check hardening temps?
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Old 11-16-2010, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Columbia, California
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Oil quenching hardens a little slower than with water. I quenched on color, light red. I was making carving knives of the same general size and shape. Went in the kiln to temper for a few hours.
Years ago I had access to a Rockwell testing machine and made many samples watching color for quenching. Played with water quenching as well.

Lately I have been looking into liquid nitrogen tempering, bought a Dewars. I want to research it more before bringing any nitrogen home.
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Old 11-17-2010, 10:06 AM
 
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I have a husky saw that was tempered, a chain saw, the whole case, engine and all went thru the process. I am not familar with it all by anymeans, but could tell the chain was very different cutting white ash. I got a few files cooked too and they were remarkable.

Thje saw was used and some of the plastics failed as they too were cooked in liquid nitrogen. I hear a new saw won't be deforned in the plastics a bit, but evidently that isn't true with a well used saw.

I bought that in 1993 and it still runs like a champ. One time I ran a overly long cut, cutting slab wood stacked in a pile, a real long gang cut, which over heated the saw.

The saw lost compression, a big O fat goose egg El Zippo. Bummer I said, and was going to tear the saw down and see how bad the clyinder walls were scored and how bad the bottle cap piston was.

I pulled off the muffler to see what I could see, and the piston was munged up in varnished carbon, and I couldn't see it. The single comp ring was stuck tight too. Pulling the cord slow to see the far side clyinder wall I could see no hint of damage, but you sort of don't see any there sinceit is the closer side that gets mashed.

For grins I soaked the combustion chamber with a product called Seafoam over night, and the next day all sorts of black mung poured out of the engine. I dunked the saw case and all less the bar in a tank of safety clean, and washed out as much mu-ng as I could. I re-applied Seafoam for another 24 hours and got almost as much go-ok out again.

I put the chain and bar on and started the engine which ran fine other than a lot of smoke which is to be expected and pulled the muffler after several cuts. The piston was spotless, showing no sign of scoring on the exhaust port side where the damage usually is.

So while I know nothing of the cold process personaly I can tell it works.

It was interesting to the shop owner then as well as he was cooking all sorts of things, all the equipment being new to him. I saw a old car tire he cooked in that tank and it didn't do well at all. It was a car tire gone to defrag LOL. All that was left was black chunks separated from the wire core.

Reminded me of Medusa on a bad hair day.

The words mu-ng and go-ok were nannied for some reason.
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Old 12-04-2010, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
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I have several old Cross cut and Rip Saw hand saws. They predate WW2. One of them got dinged when a D-8 dozer ran over it. It can't be straightened so I have thought about making fish fillet knives from it. Will this type of steel still hold an edge and stay flexible after heating and forging? Or do I even need to forge it? I have a good wet grinder in various grits I could use to put an edge on the blade as is. What kind of tempering techniques would be best?
GL2
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:47 AM
 
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Gun, You have several choices. The temper now where it is is about just right for a knife like that. So you can work it cold. You can cut the shape, drill the tang and sharpen it, just don't get it hot.

The steel will be just slighty harder to work as is, than the other option.

Heat the steel in a fire, like maybe in a wood stove till it is dull red hot in low light, then bury the steel in ashes to cool over a long time about 8 to 12 hours.

This will have you at dead soft and annealed, soft as it gets. Then cut the shape, drill the tang hols and profile to sharp.

Next you need a container with a oil quench, and long enough the blade can be dipped horizontally, like maybe a old steel window box for plants if you can find. The blade must be heated to a bright orange in good light, and or untill a magnet no longer attracts. Then quenched rapidly moving the blade up and down to shake off boiling bubbles. This is more or less a 1.5 second dip, not all the way to cold. Watch out that you don't have a flash fire. I reccomend used canoila oil, for it's better food like smell and higher flash point.

The blade will reach a lower but still hot temp, ya gotta be movin real fast with a vise pre set to straighten the glass hard blade if it warped any. The steel being very thing, you could dip about 1/2 the blade or up to about 1/2 of the blade at the working edge.

All the cooked on oil will need to be power wire brushed, and this is a little dangerous since the power wire wheel can grab the blade, and fling it, and it will be already pre sharp.

Another heating to draw or temper comes next. I like to do a batch of around 6 blades or more for this. I use a normal kitchen oven, preferably cooking a roast or a turkey. I use a store bought independant thermomitor, and cook the blades at the same temp the food requires for that amount of time and when the food is done you have soaked that much heat into the temper all the way thru the steel, and made it more flexable to a point. For some blaqdes this is enough, but I doubt it wll be as flexible and spring like as a fillet knife should be.

There are more options. The easiest is to set the oven to 600 if it will, and allow the time to be around 30 minutes, for one more heat range hotter,at which when the blade has soaked in 600 degrees should appear peacock blue at the correct temper for a fillet knife.

Another method would be to heat something like a brick made of steel to that hot and lay the back spine of the blade on that and watch the 'parade of color' run to the sharp edge.
yet another would be to use a propanr plumber torch and 'paint' the flame on the spine of the blade to see the color become that same peacock blue.

Painting with flame is hard to do, and you must be ready to quench of the color passes that blue. If the color goes to a dull gray you have normalized the steel and made it too soft again.

If the blue runs and look as if it will stop at a shade of purple before the blue comes to the cutting edge, that is fine. That means that edge is a tad harder, which will hold a sharper edge longer, and the blue color will still be flexible.

Flexible can be the abilty to absorb shock as this is the same temps and mannor a cold chisel is made by and you are not going to bend any cold chisel, but you can wack it and it won't shatter.

Lance points I make are this same way to and over the length of a horse shoe rasp they will bend and spring back straight.

What makes this hard on a fillet knife is the steel is so very thin to start with.

The blue can be sanded off with finner grit papers, or be left as is. The parade of color can best be seen wasting a common stainless steel butter knife. You can't really harden ss, but you can see the colors.

With a junk like knife grab the handle, set a plumbers torch to the far tip, and heat it till the tip begins to turn a light or pale straw. Since this type of knife is thin too, it won't take long to see the colors start. Hold the flame loosely on the tip never doing more than wave the flame left and right from the tip, and once the pale staw begins to darken remove the heat.

You will see the colors parade up towards the grip. There is a good bet that the tip where the flame was will end up looking dull gray, which is another way to get dead soft in carbon steels, the straw will have traveled towards the grip, and many other colors showing between, each with it's respective heat range, all of which are showing softer to harder, in degrees.

Frankly if I had the start you have, I would do it all every bit dead cold. With a whizz wheel I would cut a little and dip in cold water, cut a little more scoring the saw blade not cut thru and dip in cold water. Once the score was done I would snap off the weakend joint to have a rough blade, never once seeing red hot, never once getting metal close to the cut hot on my fingers.

This is to retain fully the temper the saw blade already has.

The heat for drilling rivet holes means nothing, since it is heat at the tang.

The heating methods offer a great chance at cracking the blade when the steel is this thin.

If this happens it may be possible to salvage the point, for another project, and this does happen.

I have a knife today 1.5 inches long over all, which was salavaged from a belt knife I made that cracked in 3 places in the first quench. That little cutter is some wicked nasty hard, but it was pre sharp, so the sharpening I did once, allows that to slice 9/16th" elk neck like a knive in hot butter.

I use this for making mocs,cutting the patterns and to trim threads sewwing. It lives in the hem of my Balmora hat
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:48 AM
 
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Ouch that was long
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