Segment E of the Grand Parkway (Houston, Katy: landscaping, public school, property taxes)

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by chris_ut

I spend $0 a month in tolls.

Well, right now I live in Sugar Land and work in Conroe.
I'd spend 1/2 of the day driving if I didn't take the toll road.

and yes, I'm moving.

[astrohip]

Originally Posted by Dopo

Great, another "hidden tax" toll road.

I'd like to know how much the average person in Houston spends on toll roads in 1 month.
Because right now I'm spending $8/day = $160/month.

It's not a hidden tax, it's quite the opposite. It's a very visible FEE you pay to save time. Without tolls, these highways would NOT be built. And they take traffic off the alternate routes (AKA free routes), so anyone who drives on one is doing the rest of us a favor.

I would love to see MORE of this type of governmental behavior, where users are charged for what they use, and the rest don't pay. Unless it is something where all of society benefits (eg, education, police), more guv services should be fee based.

[jfields82]

Originally Posted by Dopo

Well, right now I live in Sugar Land and work in Conroe.
I'd spend 1/2 of the day driving if I didn't take the toll road.

and yes, I'm moving.

So you admit it yourself that you receive a benefit from the toll roads. And there is no "hidden tax". You know exactly how much you are paying for this benefit: $8.00 per day.

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by astrohip

It's not a hidden tax, it's quite the opposite. It's a very visible FEE you pay to save time. Without tolls, these highways would NOT be built. And they take traffic off the alternate routes (AKA free routes), so anyone who drives on one is doing the rest of us a favor.

I would love to see MORE of this type of governmental behavior, where users are charged for what they use, and the rest don't pay. Unless it is something where all of society benefits (eg, education, police), more guv services should be fee based.

That's a nice way of putting it. But the fact is that it's a form of discrimination against poor Americans.
There's not 1 single toll road in the US that was built 100% with private funds.

Why don't we go ahead and start charging people to go to public schools, ride school buses, go in a library, go in a public park.
Hey.... they would have more money and would provide a better service .... for the people that can afford it.
Same result.... the poorer 50% of Americans would have to stop using those public services.

[jfields82]

Originally Posted by Dopo

There's not 1 single toll road in the US that was built 100% with private funds.

Can you cite a reference? I don't think you understand how toll road funding works. The entity sells bonds that fronts the money to build the road. Then, they pay off those bonds through the revenue gained by tolls. Tax dollars do not factor into that equation at all.

The fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as a "free" road. Even the "free" roads are paid mainly by gasoline taxes. With the demand constantly increasing while the gas tax has stayed constant over the past few decades, there just isn't enough money to go around to build new roads. If it weren't for tolls, those roads would not have been built, and you would, as you said, spend half your day driving. No one is forcing you to take the toll road.

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by jfields82

Can you cite a reference? I don't think you understand how toll road funding works. The entity sells bonds that fronts the money to build the road

Let's make it simple for you...
tell me 1 toll road that was 100% built and financed privately, where they paid for the land where they built the road and also paid for everything involved in the construction of that road.

I guarantee that you won't find one, because toll roads are a scam.
If toll roads are profitable, what the h.... is the point of letting a private company run it, instead of the government, just like all the other roads?


What happens when they lose money = tax payers have to bail them out
Central Texas toll roads need more state subsidies than expected - July 2011

Tolls and other revenue have fallen more than $100 million short of covering debt and operating costs of the state's three-road Central Texas Turnpike System since the highways opened about four years ago. Texas Department of Transportation subsidies almost 70 percent more than originally predicted have made up the difference.
Those subsidies, covered primarily by state gasoline taxes that otherwise would be available for other road spending, should average about $38 million a year over the next decade and total about $750 million by 2042 , according to TxDOT documents. The system's first profitable year is not estimated to occur until 2030 , with some years in the red even after that because of major road rehabilitation expenses.

[jfields82]

I don't understand why you think it's a scam. You can go to https://www.hctra.org/about_reports/and see all of their financial reports from each year. They aren't hiding anything.

You seem to think it's a matter of either building the road as a tolled road or a free road. It is actually a matter of either building it as a tolled road or not at all. Either way, you are paying for it. It's just a matter of whether you are paying for it at the pump or at the toll booth.

[dv1033]

Originally Posted by jfields82

I don't understand why you think it's a scam. You can go to https://www.hctra.org/about_reports/and see all of their financial reports from each year. They aren't hiding anything.

You seem to think it's a matter of either building the road as a tolled road or a free road. It is actually a matter of either building it as a tolled road or not at all. Either way, you are paying for it. It's just a matter of whether you are paying for it at the pump or at the toll booth.

To be fair, HCTRA did apply for about $180 million worth of stimulus money in late 2009 to build this segment and was denied because it wasn't "shovel ready". When I have time I will look through the records and see exactly how this is being funded.

Regardless, I would rather HCTRA be focusing on transit in Houston's more populated areas. I have no doubt that this will be needed in the future, but the timing is pretty crappy as there are more worthwhile projects to be funded and constructed.

[CDeb]

Originally Posted by dv1033

To be fair, HCTRA did apply for about $180 million worth of stimulus money in late 2009 to build this segment and was denied because it wasn't "shovel ready". When I have time I will look through the records and see exactly how this is being funded.

Regardless, I would rather HCTRA be focusing on transit in Houston's more populated areas. I have no doubt that this will be needed in the future, but the timing is pretty crappy as there are more worthwhile projects to be funded and constructed.

Why would a toll road operator be focused on operating a transit system, especially when a transit operator already exists?

[jfields82]

I agree. HCTRA was created to build, operate, and maintain toll roads in Houston. It has nothing to do with transit.