Houston CORE developments thread (Dallas, Post: motel, new construction, school)

[spacecitytx]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

No, Dallas does have a better upscale hotel collection. There are some things Houston does better than Dallas and there’s things Dallas does better than Houston. Collection of upscale hotels is one Dallas wins in. I’d say for a while, Austin had a better collection of upscale hotels (not luxury, just upscale; Houston has more luxury hotels than Austin). That’s possibly changed by now, but I’m not sure.

Don’t get me wrong, Dallasboi’s comment gave the vibes of envy. Particularly in progress in an area that traditionally was head and shoulders above Houston in. There’s a good ammount in the pipeline for Houston and the gap is smaller than it used to be. But nonetheless, it’s true.

Oh, I wasn't so much DISPUTING the statement...it's just that (considering the source) one has to wonder whether it's proof-ready, or just the usual hot air, lol.

Personally for me, it makes sense that Dallas would have more upscale or luxury hotels than Houston, simply because of the type of city it is. I'm certainly not upset about it.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

No, Dallas does have a better upscale hotel collection. There are some things Houston does better than Dallas and there’s things Dallas does better than Houston. Collection of upscale hotels is one Dallas wins in. I’d say for a while, Austin had a better collection of upscale hotels (not luxury, just upscale; Houston has more luxury hotels than Austin). That’s possibly changed by now, but I’m not sure.

I agree, and with regard to Dallas and its suburbs, it's been that way at least since the 1980s oil bust.

[dallasboi]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

I agree, and with regard to Dallas and its suburbs, it's been that way at least since the 1980s oil bust.

I was thinking the 50's...but okay.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by dallasboi

I was thinking the 50's...but okay.

I also think it was before the 80s. That was before my time so I wasn’t around to know. But Dallas began taking hospitality seriously before Houston started. Houston didn’t really start to put REAL focus on hospitality until the 2010s. That’s why all those brands (Le Meridian, Intercontinental, etc) opened in that decade. The common saying is that it was because of the Super Bowl. But this isn’t true. The Super Bowl was more of an “incentive” for developers. Just as the World Cup is looking forward to 2026. It was probably around that decade sometime that I’d say Houston passed Austin (by sheer numbers).

On that note, LP seriously underestimates the impact that transitioning from a 3 star hotel city to a 4 star hotel city has on the 3 star hotels; especially when they’re oversupplied.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

I also think it was before the 80s. That was before my time so I wasn’t around to know. But Dallas began taking hospitality seriously before Houston started. Houston didn’t really start to put REAL focus on hospitality until the 2010s. That’s why all those brands (Le Meridian, Intercontinental, etc) opened in that decade. The common saying is that it was because of the Super Bowl. But this isn’t true. The Super Bowl was more of an “incentive” for developers. Just as the World Cup is looking forward to 2026. It was probably around that decade sometime that I’d say Houston passed Austin (by sheer numbers).

On that note, LP seriously underestimates the impact that transitioning from a 3 star hotel city to a 4 star hotel city has on the 3 star hotels; especially when they’re oversupplied.

Note that I said "at least" meaning that it could very well have been long before the 1980s. My uncertainty before the 1980s comes from the fact that Houston had a Ritz Carlton in the 1970s-80s and the Houstonian was considered pretty luxurious when it was new, as was the Four Seasons. Also the Shamrock Hilton, while yes a Hilton, was considered a really noteworthy hotel for a decade or two (considerably earlier of course, more 1950s).

The impact on 3-star hotels (which yes, Houston may have too many of for the level of demand) by 4-star hotels will totally depend on the level of demand for the 4-star hotels at traditional 4-star rates. The ideal scenario is that there's enough demand for the 4-star at high rates so that the 4-star doesn't have to discount. In that case, there's little impact on 3-star hotels, which are catering to a slightly less spendy customer. If the 4-star hotels have to discount, that's NOT a positive thing for the Houston hotel market, from the business perspective. I don't understand why you keep stating otherwise.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Note that I said "at least" meaning that it could very well have been long before the 1980s. My uncertainty before the 1980s comes from the fact that Houston had a Ritz Carlton in the 1970s-80s and the Houstonian was considered pretty luxurious when it was new, as was the Four Seasons. Also the Shamrock Hilton, while yes a Hilton, was considered a really noteworthy hotel for a decade or two (considerably earlier of course, more 1950s).

The impact on 3-star hotels (which yes, Houston may have too many of for the level of demand) by 4-star hotels will totally depend on the level of demand for the 4-star hotels at traditional 4-star rates. The ideal scenario is that there's enough demand for the 4-star at high rates so that the 4-star doesn't have to discount. In that case, there's little impact on 3-star hotels, which are catering to a slightly less spendy customer. If the 4-star hotels have to discount, that's NOT a positive thing for the Houston hotel market, from the business perspective. I don't understand why you keep stating otherwise.

The Post Oak Hotel is better than all of those. It’s the only 5 star hotel in Texas besides the Ritz-Carlton Dallas. The Rosewood is the only possibly projected 5 star hotel in Texas besides the Mandarin Oriental Dallas. Both of these have been paused due to the pandemic, but are nonetheless still the closest possibilities to a 3rd and 4th in the state. And let’s not pretend that the St Regis (the Ritz Carlton’s replacement) isn’t a luxury hotel. And the Shamrock was not a luxury hotel. If we are just throwing our hotel names, Marriott Marquis is a noteworthy hotel. Honestly, I’m having a hard understanding what you’re trying to point out in the first paragraph. It’s very inconsistent on top of ignorant of anything at the turn of the millenia.

So to say that there were more luxury hotels then than now would be false. I will agree that between the 80s and the 2010s, there was a long drought though. By room count, you’d have to prove to me that there’s more rooms in the 80s than there is today.

But you’re confusing tiers here. Sure, we can fear there will be a demand crash after some of the pipeline hotels open, but again this is premature. There’s nothing to suggest it will happen (nothing to suggest there will be a hospitality boom either, but again, besides the point). So not point on mentioning. I’d ask if you were an investor, but you seem to afraid of risk to be one. The 3 star hotel market has been the hardest hit here, and I’m not just saying this out of instinct. You can check CRE postings for further proof. While there’s still some 3 star hotel construction happening in the region, it’s in specific zones. Others got hammered (Greenspoint and Willowbrook for example).

Also, to your last paragraph, you misunderstood that. A 4 star hotel shouldn’t and won’t drop to 3 star prices. It will retire its flag before it does that. When there’s only a couple of 4 star hotels in a 7+ million metro city, they have a monopoly and can charge much higher than market demand would suggest. That’s not indicative of a healthy hospitality market. A couple of luxury hotels, a lot of 3 star hotels and not a lot in between isn’t the best mix. From my perspective, this seemed the 80s Houston.

[atadytic19]

I think you are reading his post wrong. Or at least my interpretation if it.

It looks like by reading all the posts together that he agrees with you that Dallas HAd a better collection of hotels going back to ATLEAST the 80s. I don't think he is implying that there was a better collection of Houston Hotels between the 80s and 2010's.

I am reading from his post that he wasn't sure which city had tge better collection before the 80s and then named some Houston hotels to back up why he wasn't sure. It doesn't seem like he is comparing Houston then to Houston now, just comparing Houston then to Dallas then.


I can't comment cause that was way before my time

[spacecitytx]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

The Post Oak Hotel is better than all of those. It’s the only 5 star hotel in Texas besides the Ritz-Carlton Dallas. The Rosewood is the only possibly projected 5 star hotel in Texas besides the Mandarin Oriental Dallas. Both of these have been paused due to the pandemic, but are nonetheless still the closest possibilities to a 3rd and 4th in the state. And let’s not pretend that the St Regis (the Ritz Carlton’s replacement) isn’t a luxury hotel. And the Shamrock was not a luxury hotel. If we are just throwing our hotel names, Marriott Marquis is a noteworthy hotel. Honestly, I’m having a hard understanding what you’re trying to point out in the first paragraph. It’s very inconsistent on top of ignorant of anything at the turn of the millenia.

So to say that there were more luxury hotels then than now would be false. I will agree that between the 80s and the 2010s, there was a long drought though. By room count, you’d have to prove to me that there’s more rooms in the 80s than there is today.

But you’re confusing tiers here. Sure, we can fear there will be a demand crash after some of the pipeline hotels open, but again this is premature. There’s nothing to suggest it will happen (nothing to suggest there will be a hospitality boom either, but again, besides the point). So not point on mentioning. I’d ask if you were an investor, but you seem to afraid of risk to be one. The 3 star hotel market has been the hardest hit here, and I’m not just saying this out of instinct. You can check CRE postings for further proof. While there’s still some 3 star hotel construction happening in the region, it’s in specific zones. Others got hammered (Greenspoint and Willowbrook for example).

Also, to your last paragraph, you misunderstood that. A 4 star hotel shouldn’t and won’t drop to 3 star prices. It will retire its flag before it does that. When there’s only a couple of 4 star hotels in a 7+ million metro city, they have a monopoly and can charge much higher than market demand would suggest. That’s not indicative of a healthy hospitality market. A couple of luxury hotels, a lot of 3 star hotels and not a lot in between isn’t the best mix. From my perspective, this seemed the 80s Houston.

I think you meant it's the only 5-DIAMOND hotel in Houston, and only one of three in all of Texas.

The others would be the Ritz in Dallas and Hotel Emma in San Antonio.

There are quite a few 5 star hotels in Texas altogether.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by spacecitytx

I think you meant it's the only 5-DIAMOND hotel in Houston, and only one of three in all of Texas.

The others would be the Ritz in Dallas and Hotel Emma in San Antonio.

There are quite a few 5 star hotels in all three cities.

No, I meant 5 star. The only 2 Forbes Travel Guide 5 star hotels are those 2. That award isn’t perfect but it’s the most respected hotel rating. Hotel Emma came at a “recommended” rating which is below 4 stars in the guide (they’re notorious for being extremely picky)

[spacecitytx]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

No, I meant 5 star. The only 2 Forbes Travel Guide 5 star hotels are those 2. That award isn’t perfect but it’s the most respected hotel rating. Hotel Emma came at a “recommended” rating which is below 4 stars in the guide (they’re notorious for being extremely picky)

Yea. I guess it goes back and forth.