Fed-up (buying, universities, wages)

[gsp4ever]

Originally Posted by financelife

No doubt we are moving towards borderless corp nation states. When corporations begin to have more power and funds than many countries, isn't it inevitable? Will there be a future move towards corporatism versus nationalism? Something I've been wondering since 2001. When you consider these ideas and questions, then you may see why nobody important really cares about "illegal" immigrants. In a world of profits, there is no such thing as illegal immigrants. Americans, Mexicans, Chinese, Indians....etc. It's all the same. We're all just resources for corporations like any other resource such as raw materials, equipment, and inventory. And depending on what company plans are, cheaper inputs are often the goal.

I see your point. My question is at what point does that game of musical chairs stop? Who is going to buy these corporations' products and contribute to their bottom lines when there are less overall numbers of people with jobs (not just in the US) and those who do have jobs are paid the lowest possible wages? It's a complex issue, I'm sure.

[DanInHSV]

I agree with the previous poster. Henry Ford paying his workers enough to buy their own Model T (if the story is true) seems to be working in reverse - due to the above mentioned global labor arbitrage (credit economist Stephen Roach). American workers have less real income and so pricing pressures for American goods becomes so intense that companies cut costs - by outsourcing more of these jobs to low cost foreign labor centers. Then the cycle repeats again. As Roach points out - this is partly because of our unbalanced currencies, including China's mercantilist policies.

Eventually the wage arbitrage will go away as our purchasing power declines to match that of other countries.

[milledj]

I have always felt that this issue is disturbing at best. The category of 'illegal' itself is arbitrary. A border is just a man madeup line. If someone was born on this side or that side of a line, should it REALLY matter? Which one of us would not offer a hand if someone was, say, in need of help to live? Needed a push out of the way of an oncoming bus for example? A person is a person. If you believe in capitalism, then things should even out on their own, right? And on top of that, I have heard some folks make rude comment about Hispanics in Texas or California... but the truth is that many families lived in these places before the US had taken over. Sorry if I ramble. Everyone needs a nitch, a purpose, and hopefully we all can find ours. The US needs better schools so that the workers can better find their nitchs and compete successfully with other global workers on a level playing field.

[marmac]

-----"a border is just a man made up line"---

Why have any laws at all?

Aren't laws --man made---also ?

Seems Mexico sure enforces its --man made-- borders in regards to its neighbors who are poor and want to enter Mexico.

[gsp4ever]

Originally Posted by milledj

Which one of us would not offer a hand if someone was, say, in need of help to live?

If things get tough enough, we all might be surprised. Self preservation.

Originally Posted by milledj

The US needs better schools so that the workers can better find their nitchs and compete successfully with other global workers on a level playing field.

Unfortunately, better schools and more education will not help US workers when it comes to competing with workers (from any country) where rock bottom wages (not to mention favorable political environments) are a prime motivator for companies to do business there.

[Tankdog]

Originally Posted by guxu

Could you name some of those manufacture plants? I worked in a factory in local Huntsville before. 90%+ of the workers are black. Are they illegals too?

Looks like I hit a nerve, but LGE in Huntsville is one of them and please don't give me this about how illegals are doing the jobs Americans won't do for that's just old. They work in plants in the USA and get paid well. Ask around and find that most of them have fake papers and get paid ten dollars an hour.Think of those that are the victims in having to get their SS# straighten out and struggling with their lives while the one that broke the law works, gets paid and to top it off sends the money to another country. Illegals are hard working people, but they must do it the correct way if they want the freedom the USA has to offer.

[HB2HSV]

Originally Posted by Tankdog

Looks like I hit a nerve, but LGE in Huntsville is one of them .

We have illegal koreans here??? !!!

[GreggT]

Originally Posted by Tankdog

How is it that most people hired at these manufacture plants in North Alabama are mostly illegals with fake documents. No wonder Alabama is not hurting as the rest of the nation. Hope some of these plants are on the presidents list to be audited for their i-9 forms and we can get more jobs for AMERICAN citizens.

Just what facts do you have to back this claim up? Are you aware that if you do work for the government in any form or fashion (subcontract to another government manufacture, sell to the PX's, etc.), everybody you hire has to be E-verified? Are you aware if you manufacture for any of the major retailers that your payroll records which includes I-9's etc. are audited yearly to insure compliance with all federal and state laws? Social Security sends out lists to every employer where they show employees that there might possibly be a problem with their social. The companies have so many days to either term the employee or get the problem corrected. We have found that in over half the cases there is a clerical issue.
Just because a person is of Hispanic descent does not make them illegal. Sure there are illegal immigrants in North Alabama but the bigger problem is in the construction industry (what's left of it) and the mom and pop operations.

[guxu]

Originally Posted by HB2HSV

We have illegal koreans here??? !!!

I normally refer the company near airport as LG. Is his LGE = LG? I think most immigrants working for LG are Koreans. They are not Mexicans.

Anyone watched movie Escape from Guantanamo? There were rednecks KKK in the movie called a Korean guy and an Indian guy "Mexican!". And, yeah, it was in Alabama too.

[DvlsAdvc8]

On free trade - People fail to realize the deal you're getting by sending that sock factory to vietnam. Your socks are now very inexpensive. You have money left over that you didn't have before. Way more people buy socks than ever worked in the sock factory. The net result is a gain in standard of living. Further, the money that was saved on socks is now spent elsewhere... perhaps on a domestic good, perhaps some other foreign goood... its all good (pun intended).

What's more, there is a gain in standard of living in both countries... the formerly dirt poor vietnam industrializes - and those people begin to demand products like TVs, software, financial instruments... some of which will be produced in the US (or elsewhere, say, Japan - whose consumers may buy something from the US).

The origin of goods is irrelevant. Build it better, cheaper or faster than someone else and you'll have a job... that's ALWAYS been the bottom line. Sure, they can build a cheap, quality shoe in Cambodia... but can they develop the materials of which it is composed (particularly on a wide scale - do they have the educational infrastructure)? Now, would you rather be the one in the office designing... or the one on the factory floor? As a place develops its competitive advantage on labor cost diminishes - not to mention the fact that they have more money with which to buy products from the US.

Many companies are already finding out that sending support call centers to india wasn't a win-win situation as it came with a cost in "quality". How useful is support with an accent you can't understand?

But more on topic for the OP -

How do you know that all these people have fake identification and that this is some overwhelmingly rampant problem... and given a free trade environment where goods flow freely across borders causing manufacturing jobs to relocate to places like Mexico for cheap labor, isn't that incentive for the Mexicans to stay in Mexico? Will an American work for the same wage as a Mexican?

Personally, I want cheap socks and don't believe that America's future is in sock manufacturing (for example). So let the Mexicans come here for those jobs or let those jobs go to Mexico... I don't care. Anything else just means I have to pay an otherwise unecessary subsidy for an American to make my socks because he thinks he's entitled to a certain standard of living for doing simple labor that anyone can do. Of course, nothing will really keep the American sock factory open anyway... since consumers will just buy the socks that the Mexican's/Vietnamese/etc make cheaper with comparable quality and the American sock factory will go out of business (for not providing something better, cheaper, or faster). Those jobs are already lost to the "standard of living entitled American", whether you know it yet or not.