ONE Reason We Are In Such Deep Debt (immigrants, law, ethics)
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Despite its $26 billion budget deficit, the state spends $21.5 billion dollars annually subsidizing illegal alien [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]health[/color][/color] care, education, welfare, other state benefits and criminal justice. Every California native-born household chips in $2438 each year to help.
Unless you commit a violent felony, the state leaves you alone. Los Angeles Special Order 40 – a sanctuary policy that sets the tone statewide - prevents local officers from inquiring about your immigration status.
Gee, what could YOU do with an extra $2,438 in your bank account every year...
Yesterday I was out in the AZ heat working on our little job site, picking up sticks, caulking windows. I am almost 60. There was a nice hispanic family that our neighbor hired to do yard work and I lent the woman my wheel b to help her move bricks. We discussed the lack of work in construction and I felt her pain until her daughter drove up in a brand new Dodge dual cab truck. I looked at my older Dodge and just sighed. I will bet they have better health care coverage than we do.
My brother-in-law is a farmer. He plows fields using a big nice tractor that has an air-conditioned cab, CD player and radio. He considers it nicer than sitting in a cubicle all day, a much better view and he can play his radio as loud as he likes.
Riveting tale. But irrelevant to the discussion.
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Like you said - the problem with hiring Americans is you have to provide the safety, the machines that enable them to do the work, you have to pay legal wages. If you bring in illegals, there is no worker's comp to pay into, you can ignore the social security and other taxes, retirement plans, OSHA laws and so on because they won't care.
Of course, most employers DO pay all that stuff for illegals. And they get paid more than minimum wage (i.e. "legal wages"). This argument is completely bunk.
Of course, most employers DO pay all that stuff for illegals. And they get paid more than minimum wage (i.e. "legal wages"). This argument is completely bunk.
MOST employers of illegals are paying the prevailing wage, taxes, insurance, as well as benefits to their employees? If so, what is the advantage of employing illegal aliens? Why would a company risk fines and imprisonment if their overhead is the same for illegal aliens as citizens? And, please don’t tell me illegals work harder and are more productive, because that is utter BS. Of course, I am sure you will share your source.
By the way, your assertion contradicts the pro-illegal mantra, “our lettuce will cost $10/head if illegals are replaced by legal workers.” If they are already being paid the same as legal workers, would the costs not be the same if they left?
MOST employers of illegals are paying the prevailing wage, taxes, insurance, as well as benefits to their employees? If so, what is the advantage of employing illegal aliens? Why would a company risk fines and imprisonment if their overhead is the same for illegal aliens as citizens? And, please don’t tell me illegals work harder and are more productive, because that is utter BS. Of course, I am sure you will share your source.
There's not an inherent advantage to hiring illegal aliens. But there is a tendency for immigrants to be willing to do a given job for a lower price. Unless you think all legal workers are working for minimum wage then your argument here makes no sense at all since there's nothing magical about two guys both being willing to do the same job for different wages.
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By the way, your assertion contradicts the pro-illegal mantra, “our lettuce will cost $10/head if illegals are replaced by legal workers.” If they are already being paid the same as legal workers, would the costs not be the same if they left?
There's no contradiction at all. You act like there's some big rule that legal workers have to be paid $X and illegal workers must be paid some fixed fraction of $X. That is not the case at all.
There's not an inherent advantage to hiring illegal aliens. But there is a tendency for immigrants to be willing to do a given job for a lower price. Unless you think all legal workers are working for minimum wage then your argument here makes no sense at all since there's nothing magical about two guys both being willing to do the same job for different wages.
There's no contradiction at all. You act like there's some big rule that legal workers have to be paid $X and illegal workers must be paid some fixed fraction of $X. That is not the case at all.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but did you not state that MOST employers are paying the “same stuff” to illegal aliens as they pay to citizens? The last time I checked, “the same” means equal, not more, or less.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but did you not state that MOST employers are paying the “same stuff” to illegal aliens as they pay to citizens? The last time I checked, “the same” means equal, not more, or less.
Did you actually read the post? Here's what I was replying to:
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If you bring in illegals, there is no worker's comp to pay into, you can ignore the social security and other taxes, retirement plans, OSHA laws and so on because they won't care.
Now, do you think it's impossible to pay two people two different amounts and still pay into SS, taxes, etc, observe OSHA, etc? Or is this only possible if the two people make exactly the same amount of money?
Did you actually read the post? Here's what I was replying to:
Now, do you think it's impossible to pay two people two different amounts and still pay into SS, taxes, etc, observe OSHA, etc? Or is this only possible if the two people make exactly the same amount of money?
Nice try, but you know darn well which post I quoted, and which post I later referenced. Do you guys do anything without subterfuge?
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Originally Posted by rhymetime
Riveting tale. But irrelevant to the discussion.
Of course, most employers DO pay all that stuff for illegals. And they get paid more than minimum wage (i.e. "legal wages"). This argument is completely bunk.
Nice try, but you know darn well which post I quoted, and which post I later referenced. Do you guys do anything without subterfuge?
I've noticed a very high correlation between people using the icon and those people totally missing the point.
In this case, you are really taking this to new hieghts.
Here, I took a picture to help you.
Now, you see the post you quoted, which includes the infamous "THAT STUFF FOR ILLEGALS" *and* you see the post I was replying to. It should be plainly obvious that "that stuff" refers to the stuff I circled in red.
Do you think it's possible to pay "that stuff" for two guys and still pay them different amounts in their paycheck? yes or no.
I've noticed a very high correlation between people using the icon and those people totally missing the point.
In this case, you are really taking this to new hieghts.
Here, I took a picture to help you.
Now, you see the post you quoted, which includes the infamous "THAT STUFF FOR ILLEGALS" *and* you see the post I was replying to. It should be plainly obvious that "that stuff" refers to the stuff I circled in red.
Do you think it's possible to pay "that stuff" for two guys and still pay them different amounts in their paycheck? yes or no.
What has changed? I will tell you, NOTHING. Your response remains the same. According to you, most employers already pay illegals “all that stuff.” To which I responded, if employers are already paying the same to illegals as to citizens, how do they profit from employing illegal aliens? I was not replying to his comments, I was responding to yours. Now, do you get it?
Of course, most employers DO pay all that stuff for illegals. And they get paid more than minimum wage (i.e. "legal wages"). This argument is completely bunk.
No it isn't. Employers hire them to cut labor costs. Different employers have different ideas about how to get away with it. Some avoid Americans and hire illegals because there is very little pressure for raises with illegals and they can break a few laws, but their motivation behind paying all those costs (looking legal) is so they can say, "I had no clue 48 of my 50 employees were illegal aliens." A nursery here in Sacramento did exactly that. When they got "busted" their penalty wasn't much more that having to fire them. Their solution? They made it clear they were only interested in hiring people who speak Spanish and for minimum wage. That is, real Americans need not apply.
During the housing boom one of the builders here got busted for having a crew of over 100 illegal aliens. The reason this builder got busted was he was already under investigation for tax evasion and one of his employees got shot himself in the hand with a power nail gun, it got infected, he went to emergency at the taxpayers expense and the Worker's Compensation Board got involved. He was paying this guy $15 an hour off the books, thinking if he pays them more than minimum wage they won't complain if they are injured or something. The illegals think $15 an hour is great when taxes aren't taken out of it, and it is better for the employer who would normally have to pay $18 an hour, plus payroll taxes. This builder was fined and he had to fire his illegal workers. The fine didn't stop him. He was caught hiring illegals again, then a third time. Obviously the fines aren't a deterrent. The only thing that stopped him was the economy when he closed the business. I'm sure the illegal aliens he fired shrugged their shoulders and went to work for someone else.
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