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I honestly can't believe that you would support crime in any way shape or form, regardless of whether or not they "need the money for food".
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A store owner accepting expired ID wants to make a sale. That is NOT civil disobedience and you slander the memory of REAL examples of civil disobedience by even trying to make the civil disobedience argument here!
I was with your sentiments until you brought up the Al-Qaeda issue, and the link to terrorism and the Mexican border.
I think the greater threat for this is actually the Canadian border. Canada has a very significant vulnerability to terrorist operatives, and they are aware of it:
That border is massive, and very difficult to patrol.
Aye, I support controlling both borders, I know the Canadian border is much more vulnerable than our southern border, but this debate has been more-so about the southern border. Yes, terrorists are crossing both borders, but the southern border is arguably more of a problem due to the sheer numbers coming across (Canadians have it pretty well in Canada, not much reason for them to migrate here illegally). But yes, I do support complete and strict border control for all of our borders, and in the regard of our northern border, I think Canada should be equally responsible for keeping those people out of their country in the first place, but they don't. So we can solve the problem with Canada's immigration laws, or build another couple thousand miles of fence and keep coast guard crews out on the great lakes 24/7. Seems more efficient to have Canada crack down on their own borders to me, and if Mexico's government had the capability, I would suggest the same for them. Plus that reference of Al-Qaeda brought in at the southern border was more of an example to prove that they *are* coming across, and that whole post was more towards illegal immigration as a whole.
I honestly can't believe that you would support crime in any way shape or form, regardless of whether or not they "need the money for food". Finding a job is not that hard, even a job at a fast food restaurant, who are ALWAYS hiring is enough to live off of, if they are good with their money. And no-experience necessary jobs that are always hiring (call-centers, for example), start people out at $10-$13 an hour (Source: Call centers' wages on the rise | www.azstarnet.com ® (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/star200/171610.php - broken link), which is for a more specific set of call centers, but T-Mobile starts their employees at no less than $10.50/hr, Verizon starts their employees at no less than $11.00/hr, and out-sourcing call centers have starting wages ranging from $7.50 to $10.00/hr, those numbers are based on the fact that I worked for T-Mobile [which I started at $12.50 with no call center experience and do not speak other languages] and an Outsourcing Call center [Which I started at $9.50 and after 90 days was given a $.25 raise to $9.75/hr], and have many friends who work for Verizon, including my Sister [who makes $14.50/hr, and a friend of mine made the same]), which is plenty to live off of, and they usually have pay increases for being multi-lingual, which is easy for them, since most illegal immigrants are from countries that do not speak English. Finding a job as a multi-lingual person is easy in this country, so there is no reason these people should be stealing from us or getting food stamps. They need to get a job.
i agree with you, for the most part. if you have the potential to get a job, it supercedes any excuse for crime you can dream up. i guess my response was a little off-base. i was just working in the context of crime commission, and that was my mistake. so many analogies that people conjur up relating to illegal immigration are putting them in damning situations from the get-go. its hardly objective or fair. my mistake was leaning too far in the opposite direction, in that instance.
but people have stolen to eat in the past. its the robin hood mentality. and most people saw him as a hero.
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Illegal immigrants over the past 6 years are responsible for more than 22,000 deaths of US citizens (based on numbers in 2006, if the numbers stay the same, the amount now would be almost 27,000, and that is *just* murders). And that is ONLY murders, not deaths caused by illegal immigrants in automobile accidents. The death toll of US soldiers in Iraq for that same period is a little under 3,900. 2 soldiers a day die in Iraq and Afghanistan, whereas 12 people a day die due to illegal immigrant murderers. More people die from illegal immigration than soldiers in a COMBAT ZONE described as violent and extremely hostile by the same pro-illegal immigration yahoos. Yet you call these immigrants safe, and only wanting to peacefully come over and find work and better their lives. Sources: The Associated Press: US Military Deaths in Iraq at 3,861 More Americans killed by illegal aliens than Iraq war, study says (OneNewsNow.com) (broken link) WorldNetDaily: Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily
the important factor to consider when comparing death rates in the united states vs iraq is the PERCENTAGE. i already did a quick write-up on this, and found that the murder rate of americans is 7x higher in iraq than in the united states. you cant compare numbers from a 300 million population base to a population base of UNDER 1 million directly and expect the answers to truly reflect the RATES of murder. its skewed statistics to further an agenda. the dishonesty works against the credibility of the position, big time.
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and, most importantly Impacts Of Illegal Immigration: Terrorism which clearly states that 3 of the 4 terrorist pilots involved in 9/11 attacks were ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Your arguments are now no longer valid. Ask for proof and sources, you have them.
"According to the INS, three of the 19 hijackers were here illegally on expired visas, and two were able to obtain valid visas despite being on U.S. intelligence agency watch lists." Center for Immigration Studies
so i guess i was wrong. 15 of the 19 werent here legally... apparently 16 of the 19 were. again, your skewed statistics MOD CUT
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Also, if you read some of the links on The Dark Side Of Illegal Immigration: Facts, Figures and Data Show A Disturbing Truth , you will see that Al-Qaeda operatives have been apprehended at the Southern border, which proves terrorists are crossing our borders illegally. There is also a staggering number of illegal immigrants (greater than 45,000) which come from countries that sponsor or harbor terrorists/terrorism.
the united states supports/sponsors terrorism. we armed and trained the taliban, remember? osama bin laden used to be a CIA ASSET!
you can look at any situation in a negative light, and only tell half the story to make it more believable. but to those of us that understand the whole story, your position holds no water.
the important factor to consider when comparing death rates in the united states vs iraq is the PERCENTAGE. i already did a quick write-up on this, and found that the murder rate of americans is 7x higher in iraq than in the united states. you cant compare numbers from a 300 million population base to a population base of UNDER 1 million directly and expect the answers to truly reflect the RATES of murder. its skewed statistics to further an agenda. the dishonesty works against the credibility of the position, big time.
...but to those of us that understand the whole story, your position holds no water.
I am in no way being dishonest, so credibility is not being harmed in any way. The simple fact is that more people a year are being murdered by illegal immigrants than soldier deaths in combat operations over the past 6 years, and you are trying to argue that by throwing in percentages of populace, the simple fact is that 27,000 murders in the past 6 years have been caused by "innocent and docile" illegal immigrants. In that same time period, CONCENTRATED ATTACKS on US Soldiers in Iraq by experienced insurgents, many with military or terrorist training, resulted in 1/7 of the deaths caused by immigrants illegally crossing our borders. Bear in mind our soldiers are knowingly and voluntarily putting themselves in harms way in a COMBAT ZONE where it is people's goal to kill us, where as many of the people murdered by illegal immigrants probably are not. Also, the number you quote does not include the estimated deaths caused by illegal immigrants in non-murderous situations (Fatal automobile wrecks, of which 20% were caused by un-licensed illegal immigrants). Add that on, and whose numbers are skewed? Perhaps I should tack on the amount of rape charges held against Illegal immigrants? That's another 8 a day for the past 6 years. So, 12 people a day murdered by illegal immigrants. 3 people a day killed by illegal immigrants in fatal automobile accidents. 8 People a day raped by illegal immigrants. 23 people a day are subjected to the worst possible circumstances by illegal immigrants. That is more than 50,000 people over the last 6 years who have been killed or raped by illegal immigrants. Let's not forget that those people's families have had to deal with it as well. So, the number of people personally effected by criminal illegal aliens increases exponentially beyond just those who were the immediate victims. But, by you, that's okay that hundreds of thousands of people over the past 6 years have been hurt physically and emotionally, in the worst kind of way, by illegal immigrants. Because, hey, they just want to come here and be upstanding citizens and help make this a better place, right? I think if our Government did its job and secured our borders (All of them), that would be 50,000 less victims. Which is, by the way, FAR GREATER than the number of people terrorists have killed over the same amount of time, in all countries, civilian or military.
Deaths caused by terrorists average just around 700 a year, WORLDWIDE. Far less than the average of 4500 murders in the United States by Illegal Immigrants. So, Illegal immigrants in *ONE COUNTRY* are responsible for 6 times more deaths a year than deaths caused by terrorism in all countries. Oh, and that average INCLUDES the deaths of all those people on 9/11. 3500 people died in 2001 to terrorist attacks. That is by far the worst year for terrorist attacks, ever. Yet it is still less than the 4500 average of murders caused by illegal immigrants.
Illegal immigrants cause far more deaths than TERRORISTS, yet you want to open your doors and arms to them. Have fun with that.
Guess someone missed that chapter of the "whole story".
I am in no way being dishonest, so credibility is not being harmed in any way.
that report is not giving an accurate representation of the numbers comparison. it makes it seem like illegal immigrants are more dangerous than iraqi insurgents, without bringing to light the population base they are working in. pure numbers mean nothing when your two base subjects are unequal. if its not purely dishonest, its very shady!
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The simple fact is that more people a year are being murdered by illegal immigrants than soldier deaths in combat operations over the past 6 years, and you are trying to argue that by throwing in percentages of populace,
because it makes a difference! if the same number of americans were over in iraq and in america (half and half), then who do you think would be responsible for more deaths?
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the simple fact is that 27,000 murders in the past 6 years have been caused by "innocent and docile" illegal immigrants.
again, misrepresentation. 27,000 murders were by criminals with an illegal immigration status. the other murders were by criminals with a legal immigrant status, or citizenship. it is fairly obvious that not all citizens are murderers, nor legal immigrants, nor illegal immigrants. the thing that they all have in common is that they are murderers. that is what we should be focusing on. attributing 27,000 murders to the whole base of illegal immigrants is like attributing the murders of our citizen population to you and i and every other citizen. that doesnt make sense either.
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In that same time period, CONCENTRATED ATTACKS on US Soldiers in Iraq by experienced insurgents, many with military or terrorist training, resulted in 1/7 of the deaths caused by immigrants illegally crossing our borders.
what the heck is an "experienced" insurgent. do you have stats on how many are militarily trained?
and again with the numbers thing. tell me the percentages, please. just for fun.
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Bear in mind our soldiers are knowingly and voluntarily putting themselves in harms way in a COMBAT ZONE where it is people's goal to kill us, where as many of the people murdered by illegal immigrants probably are not.
no wonder such a higher percentage are getting killed.
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Also, the number you quote does not include the estimated deaths caused by illegal immigrants in non-murderous situations (Fatal automobile wrecks, of which 20% were caused by un-licensed illegal immigrants). Add that on, and whose numbers are skewed?
um, actually, i did.
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Perhaps I should tack on the amount of rape charges held against Illegal immigrants?
yeah. compare total number of illegal rape cases vs. total number of citizen rape cases. since you dont like percentages...
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That's another 8 a day for the past 6 years. So, 12 people a day murdered by illegal immigrants. 3 people a day killed by illegal immigrants in fatal automobile accidents. 8 People a day raped by illegal immigrants. 23 people a day are subjected to the worst possible circumstances by illegal immigrants. That is more than 50,000 people over the last 6 years who have been killed or raped by illegal immigrants. Let's not forget that those people's families have had to deal with it as well. So, the number of people personally effected by criminal illegal aliens increases exponentially beyond just those who were the immediate victims. But, by you, that's okay that hundreds of thousands of people over the past 6 years have been hurt physically and emotionally, in the worst kind of way, by illegal immigrants. Because, hey, they just want to come here and be upstanding citizens and help make this a better place, right?
similar numbers can be found for our citizen populace. most people i know were victims or know victims of crimes, committed by everyday citizens. you treat these illegals like another species. the similarities are totally obvious. we have a large chunk doing well. we also have a criminal chunk. we do not mix the two when it comes to dispensing justice.
once again, your shady perspective is demonizing a group of people through generalization. im not defending violent crime. never had, never will. but it is not EVERY SINGLE illegal immigrant that is a criminal, and punishing those who have not committed a violent crime because of a few bad apples is unamerican and altogether ridiculous. do you ever expect to be punished for the crimes of others?
and lastly, i would like to know... since so many black males are in prison for violent crime, do you think that crime reduction is a justification for deporting them? why or why not?
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I think if our Government did its job and secured our borders (All of them), that would be 50,000 less victims. Which is, by the way, FAR GREATER than the number of people terrorists have killed over the same amount of time, in all countries, civilian or military.
you cant say there would be 50,000 less victims. what if they had come in legally? is that going to stop them? because no legal immigrant has ever committed a crime, right?
crime happens. it sucks, no doubt. but how it is now is how it has to be: we give everybody the benefit of the doubt until they commit a crime, then we go after the individual that committed the crime, then we prosecute them and them alone. you cant throw due process out the window because they are here "illegally". that is disgusting thinking. thats what happened when we had japanese internment camps. what the heck did those do to help us?
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Deaths caused by terrorists average just around 700 a year, WORLDWIDE. Far less than the average of 4500 murders in the United States by Illegal Immigrants. So, Illegal immigrants in *ONE COUNTRY* are responsible for 6 times more deaths a year than deaths caused by terrorism in all countries. Oh, and that average INCLUDES the deaths of all those people on 9/11. 3500 people died in 2001 to terrorist attacks. That is by far the worst year for terrorist attacks, ever. Yet it is still less than the 4500 average of murders caused by illegal immigrants.
excellent point! you know what this tells a rational human being? that both illegal immigrants AND terrorism are boogiemen! they are no real threat to us. secondhand smoke kills almost 50,000/year! (Secondhand Smoke Fact Sheet - American Lung Association site (http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c=dvLUK9O0E&b=35422 - broken link)).. what are you doing about that? wheres your crusade? terrorism and illegal immigrants COMBINED kill nearly 1/10th of the people. is that a real threat? really?
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Illegal immigrants cause far more deaths than TERRORISTS, yet you want to open your doors and arms to them. Have fun with that.
Guess someone missed that chapter of the "whole story".
^fear-mongering. you must watch a lot of bill o'reilly.
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