Debate on illegal immigration grows larger (unemployment, salary, education system, USA)
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Your screen name fits you quite well. They grow things just fine in the desert. Maybe you should learn more about a region you say you are familiar with. Your posts show that you are not at all.
Cute. I've driven through hundreds of miles of Mexico highways and roads and been through countless regions, cities and towns. I've discussed this very topic with my wife's family members. I've seen plenty of poverty there, not too dissimilar from the poverty seen on Indian reservations here in the states. I think I'm a little more familiar with the region than you assume.
The "desert" reference was not describing Mexico as a desert, or saying nothing grows there. I was asking what you (or others) would do if you lived in a place where there is little or no sign of economic improvement - isn't it human nature to go where there is better opportunity?
There are many things that illegal immigration does to American citizens, especially those citizens on the lowest rungs of the 'food chain'. EVERY job taken by an illegal alien is a job that was FORMERLY done by a citizen or legal immigrant. EVERY job.
What happens to those millions of LEGAL residents when scumbag employers replace them with a more desperate workforce? They either get jobs paying LESS than what they previously earned; or wind up on the 'public dole', raising tax rates for still-employed Americans in order to cover the increase in costs of our social welfare programs.
It has been estimated that the wage suppression aspect of illegal immigration ALONE is costing the American worker over $200 BILLION a year. When you start adding the costs of education, infrastructure, law enforcement and benefits to 'anchor babies', we're talking about maybe 3/4 of a TRILLION dollars, EACH AND EVERY YEAR! I don't care WHO you are, that's A LOT of $$$$!
Additionally, illegal aliens send about $40 billion dollars a year OUT OF THE COUNTRY; money that would, if spent HERE, would create the 'multiplier effect', and have an ENORMOUS positive impact on our economy AND our citizens.
I'd be happy to have a deeper discussion about these things, as I have LIVED through the deleterious effects PERSONALLY, so if you have any questions about how I feel or why I'd certainly respond, without rancor.
What do you want to know?
There's no denying that people lose out on jobs to cheap labor. You're definitely right about that. US workers are being affected. But at the same time, hasn't that brought the cost of goods down to balance out the tax increases?
As for the money sent out of the country, that's true as well. But if money is being sent back to Mexico, doesn't that also prevent the people receiving that money from trying to cross the border illegally as well?
I'm not saying this evens it all out, I'm just wondering what the true impact is once we take into consideration the cheap labor costs that have kept the price of goods down. I'm certain it's costing us money, I just would like to know what the actual figures are.
There's no denying that people lose out on jobs to cheap labor. You're definitely right about that. US workers are being affected. But at the same time, hasn't that brought the cost of goods down to balance out the tax increases?
As for the money sent out of the country, that's true as well. But if money is being sent back to Mexico, doesn't that also prevent the people receiving that money from trying to cross the border illegally as well?
I'm not saying this evens it all out, I'm just wondering what the true impact is once we take into consideration the cheap labor costs that have kept the price of goods down. I'm certain it's costing us money, I just would like to know what the actual figures are.
I'll give you credit for making an honest effort to 'get the picture', and I do think you're sincere. Do you realize, though, that your middle paragraph (above) sounds very nuch like you're describing some sort of 'protection' racket? (i.e, "you send us money, and MAYBE we'll cut down on the number of illegals we send").
We shouldn't have to 'pay off' Mexico to keep them from 'dumping' their poor on us. I'm a big believer in help and compassion..but I resent being 'bullied' or 'threatened', which is what this sounds like. Mexico isn't at ALL among the world's truly "poor" nations..it just happens to have a very laid-back, not-too-picky neighbor.
I have some questions for some of you who make the statement that illegal immigration is destroying our economy...
1. Where are the stats published on the percentage of the 12 million illegals living here that do not pay income taxes. From what I've read and found, many illegals use fake social security numbers, which means they pay taxes and contribute to our economy just like everyone else.
I'm not saying it's right or even legal. But it brings into question the accuracy of the belief that most illegals don't pay for various social services (education, ER, welfare, etc). Sure, labor jobs can be paid under the table, but most restaurant jobs and other services would require a SS# and the employer would have to take taxes out of checks. I wouldn't know what the stats are, but I'm interested in seeing them.
2. How much of the damage from wage suppression is offset by the cheaper cost of labor? Are there any estimates of how much the cost of goods would increase if we lost all the cheap labor? Again, I'm not suggesting it would be a wash, I'd just like to see some data.
3. How much would our lives improve as US citizens if all the illegal immigrants were deported tomorrow? Think about it in measurable terms. How much would your cost of living go down (or up)? How many businesses would die due to fewer patrons? How many jobs would open up (or disappear)? How competitive would be in a global economy when our labor rates begin doubling compared to our competitors? I'm just asking your honest opinion and would hope that you're basing your opinion on more than just a couple of data points. There are so many things that would be affected that I think people are not taking into account.
I do believe illegal immigration is having a negative impact on our economy, but I question how big. I don't think it's a small number, necessarily, but I haven't seen data to support the idea that it's a massive number. If people could post some data points it would help more people have a better understanding of the true effects.
I'll give you credit for making an honest effort to 'get the picture', and I do think you're sincere. Do you realize, though, that your middle paragraph (above) sounds very nuch like you're describing some sort of 'protection' racket? (i.e, "you send us money, and MAYBE we'll cut down on the number of illegals we send").
We shouldn't have to 'pay off' Mexico to keep them from 'dumping' their poor on us. I'm a big believer in help and compassion..but I resent being 'bullied' or 'threatened', which is what this sounds like. Mexico isn't at ALL among the world's truly "poor" nations..it just happens to have a very laid-back, not-too-picky neighbor.
I'm just saying it's part of cause and affect, that's all. I don't think it's a matter of us having to pay them off. It's just a natural affect. And no, overall the nation isn't among the world's truly poor. But there are enough truly poor (very poor) living there who see the US as their only option to change their fortunes.
And yes, I truly am trying to get an honest assessment from others. I'm challenging peoples' statements in order to find out why they believe what they believe. It helps me form (and sometimes even change) my own opinions when I see data and hear potential solutions to problems. And at the same time, I'm trying to encourage others to dig deeper to make sure they're basing their opinions and beliefs on good data as much as possible.
I think the Mexican government needs an ass kicking for not creating more opportunity for their citizens. But how do you punish them without making things worse on their citizens? Because it's obvious they won't do much to help their poor.
Last edited by Ludachris; 09-05-2008 at 10:58 PM..
I have some questions for some of you who make the statement that illegal immigration is destroying our economy...
1. Where are the stats published on the percentage of the 12 million illegals living here that do not pay income taxes. From what I've read and found, many illegals use fake social security numbers, which means they pay taxes and contribute to our economy just like everyone else.
I'm not saying it's right or even legal. But it brings into question the accuracy of the belief that most illegals don't pay for various social services (education, ER, welfare, etc). Sure, labor jobs can be paid under the table, but most restaurant jobs and other services would require a SS# and the employer would have to take taxes out of checks. I wouldn't know what the stats are, but I'm interested in seeing them.
Let me ask you a question. Do you have any idea what a person earning $10 an hour pays in Federal Income Tax? The answer is very little, and if exemptions are claimed, the answer is none at all. In fact, people earning that little money can not only get a refund on what little they did pay, they can also get money BACK from the gov't through the EITC, about $3,000 per child
2. How much of the damage from wage suppression is offset by the cheaper cost of labor? Are there any estimates of how much the cost of goods would increase if we lost all the cheap labor? Again, I'm not suggesting it would be a wash, I'd just like to see some data. Not very much at all, but before I justify that statement let me ask you another question. What goods are you claiming have been kept 'low-priced' through illegal alien labor? The highest concentrations of illegal labor are in the construction fields, the service and hospitality industries and agriculture. The price of housing has only dropped recently due to the mortgage meltdown, the prior 20 years saw the largest gains in home prices in the history of the nation. The price of hotels and restaurants certainly hasn't been kept low, and unless you've never set foot in a grocery store you know that food prices are rising faster than ever, too.
3. How much would our lives improve as US citizens if all the illegal immigrants were deported tomorrow? Think about it in measurable terms. How much would your cost of living go down (or up)? How many businesses would die due to fewer patrons? How many jobs would open up (or disappear)? How competitive would be in a global economy when our labor rates begin doubling compared to our competitors? I'm just asking your honest opinion and would hope that you're basing your opinion on more than just a couple of data points. There are so many things that would be affected that I think people are not taking into account. Well, there's that 3/4 of a trillion dollars that I mentioned earlier...
I do believe illegal immigration is having a negative impact on our economy, but I question how big. I don't think it's a small number, necessarily, but I haven't seen data to support the idea that it's a massive number. If people could post some data points it would help more people have a better understanding of the true effects.
There's a TON of information out there that can answer your questions, it will take a commitment of time on your part to ferret it all out and actually read it. I've spent an inordinate amount of time over the last 5 years educating myself about illegal immigration's causes and effects, but I can't provide you with all the sources my information has come from because I haven't saved it all.
One final point I want to make though, addresses your first statement. "Where are the stats published on the percentage of the 12 million illegals living here..." Do you honestly believe the number is 12 million, or are you just repeating the number that you've heard? The reason I've asked is because some simple addition, using figures provided by the US Census and the Border Patrol, lead me to believe that number is MUCH closer to 30-35 million.
Good point on #1. I hadn't thought of that. I guess I was too busy trying to prove the point that many of them pay taxes just like the rest of us. I forgot about refunds for lower wage earners.
On #2 though, how can we assume the cost of goods wouldn't be higher as a direct result of higher wages paid in those industries? Wouldn't it be the same affect as higher fuel costs (which is probably a big factor in why the cost of groceries are rising so fast lately, as you pointed out)? I'm not saying the cost of goods are low, but it wouldn't be illogical to think that the prices would be much higher due to higher wages. We can't always keep inflation low.
I'm not saying you're wrong. It sounds as if you've done more research than I on the subject. Just some honest questions. As for the 12 million stat, I found that in a couple separate articles a few months ago. Can't remember the sources though.
So in that theory, how are they a financial burden on the tax payers?
There have been various studies, and this one seems to be the most plausible since it actually came from an economist-- not ImmigrationWatchdog.
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