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These laws quoted that related to employer obligation to ensure a given employee is legally in the U.S. is an interesting; albeit, completely ineffective approach.
The goals need to be to properly maintain the border, a federal respsonsibility. Thereafter, once this has failed to make it impossible for people with no right to work and live in the United States to do so.
Reasonable implementations of this should be supported along with active deportation.
There is a legal mechanism of being in the United States, which is complex and required 3 separating filings before I had my U.S. citizenship, despite being an American Trained Medical Specialist.
The criteria is high and should be. The point to which we completely eliminate any rule that is based upon immigration being of benefit to the United Staes; we harm the country.
There are laws that simply are being unenforced, but need to be. The change in demographics in the U.S. in the next 30-50 years will be dramatic with certain ethnic groups having short reproduction times and large families; but with the professionals taking their time and having 0, 1 or 2 children.
How is all this going to work out for the U.S. come 50 years from now? Both the young and the old requiring a lot of government services, the percentage of highly functional and highly earning individuals declining. It is not the picture of an upwardly mobile society.
If the U.S. took the immigration approach of most other advanced societies and required at minimum the immigrant be a possitive effect on their society and fund their expenses as to not be a burder on society; we'd be so much better off. America already has its homegrown challenges; accepting additional challenges from abroad is extremely foolish and takes a manageable problem to an unmanageble problem.
Simply looking at finances; how are we to function with an older generation needing increased funding and a younger generation who instead of providing this funding are themselves holding their hands out for support. The demographic has changed, and to the extreme threat of the long term success of American Society. A substantial part of this reponsibility is due to non-functional members of society that are home grown, but with the introduction of all the additional numbers that are imported make it a non-manageable situation
The conclusion is that the U.S. will be a downwardly mobile society for reasons that relate to laziness, lack of direction, lack of hard work and also a lack of maintaining one's society, its values and structure. Illegal immigration is a major part of this.
The illegals aren't the entire problem, but they are present at detriment to this society and it is superficial to exam the costs of employement as compared to the uncompared costs to society. We can sustain dealing with our own problem cases who are stupid and have 12 kids by the time they are 30; but importanting a group of people who also do this is not good societal planning.
It's so easy to frame this as racism -- it's not in the least. It has to do with a reasonable expectation that laws will be upheld and people who are present in certain areas deserve to be there.
That overall detrimenets to society are not imported, as we already have plenty of home grown crazy folks that require our help.
The secondary issue is a complete lack of integration to society, maintenance of separation, not learning the language and not having any intent to integrate. It is offensive - I'd never move to Italy and not do my best to speak Italian and integrate culturally.
Individually, many of the "illegals" are good people striving for personal goals which are admirable. However, as we buy into this; we completely fail to look at the societal costs of allowing what is a completely illegal presence. Many, actually, most, are not bad people, but they have no right to be here. A small subgroup are quite bad people and add not only economic insult to the legal population, but also a criminal insult.
The federal government is failing in protecting its legally residing citizens to only need to interact with people that are legally here. This is a failure.
The issue in the previous inquiry about whether I'd like to comment on the specifics of billl X,Y,or Z is really irrelevant as this distracts from the real issue; which is why would we tolerate such a situation at all.
I'm willing to prove my right to live and work in the U.S. at the point that anyone became serious about this and its implementation. It would be a great day when this concept was taken seriously. It would be an even better day when only legally residing or visiting people are present in the U.S. This is how things are supposed to be.
Idealistic ... perhaps -- but I emmigrated to the U.S.as a kid, had to fill out all the papers, get the lawyers and in my 20's get more lawyers to get my citizenship. When I decided some time ago to migrate to another country; I didn't sneak into their country, maintain my language and customs ... instead I made the deep decision that migration means becoming part of the society, and also a need to only legitimately be there if I'm bettering their country; otherwise, I have no business being there. If our immigrants felt this way; these discussions would never be necessary, we'd be thrilled to have each and every one of them.
So have you contacted your legislators? Have you educated yourself on the issues beyond just blaming every societal ill on these people you hate so much? quote]
I haven't heard anyone blaming them for global warming. I am not of fan of environmental destruction but I have yet to find a good reason to blame illegals. Your statement above is education enough - they are criminals. No need to further complicate things - as you suggest, my hat just may be bigger than my cattle??
Why don't you start a thread with the questions you posed? In the meantime, if you don't want read what some of us think about the criminal behavior of illegals - don't click on the thread. I personally appreciate the efforts that shed light on the enormity of the problem. It is not simply a problem of illegal entry, in many cases it escalates to more serious crime. And yes, we have plenty of our very own, home grown criminal element and freeloaders, but to them we are obligated, to illegals we are not (or at least should not be). None of us are going to fix the problem sitting behind our computers. I don't suspect we will change any one's mind, as you stated, this is an issue on which we are quite polarized and a meeting of the minds will not likely occur.
Your suggestions of further education and involvement are well taken but your efforts to use intellectual intimidation to distract from the fact that there are so many of these crime reports is not unnoticed. "Wowing you" is of no concern to me. Americans, whether well versed on all current proposals/solutions , or not (by the way, non of which would be necessary if the government were enforcing immigration laws) have the absolute right to say "we want our laws enforced." Then again, I am most likely not getting your drift.
The person quoted, who dared to engage in an intellectual challenge, has, I believe not only met her match, but has been outwitted .. loving it!
It worked then, it can work again. I propose putting a bounty on illegals of $1,500 per head.
That would be cheap in the long run if you assume they are abusing our services, hospitals, roads, etc. It would also stimulate the economy by creating new jobs. At $1,500 a head you could make a nice income by rounding up a few a month.
So have you contacted your legislators? Have you educated yourself on the issues beyond just blaming every societal ill on these people you hate so much? quote]
I haven't heard anyone blaming them for global warming. I am not of fan of environmental destruction but I have yet to find a good reason to blame illegals. Your statement above is education enough - they are criminals. No need to further complicate things - as you suggest, my hat just may be bigger than my cattle??
Why don't you start a thread with the questions you posed? In the meantime, if you don't want read what some of us think about the criminal behavior of illegals - don't click on the thread. I personally appreciate the efforts that shed light on the enormity of the problem. It is not simply a problem of illegal entry, in many cases it escalates to more serious crime. And yes, we have plenty of our very own, home grown criminal element and freeloaders, but to them we are obligated, to illegals we are not (or at least should not be). None of us are going to fix the problem sitting behind our computers. I don't suspect we will change any one's mind, as you stated, this is an issue on which we are quite polarized and a meeting of the minds will not likely occur.
Your suggestions of further education and involvement are well taken but your efforts to use intellectual intimidation to distract from the fact that there are so many of these crime reports is not unnoticed. "Wowing you" is of no concern to me. Americans, whether well versed on all current proposals/solutions , or not (by the way, non of which would be necessary if the government were enforcing immigration laws) have the absolute right to say "we want our laws enforced." Then again, I am most likely not getting your drift.
You took a post that was a response to an individual post directed at me and made it a response to the general forum. I wasn't looking to be 'wowed' by you in particular. Actually, your post is a refreshing change from what's usually in here, so it's appreciated.
I want our laws enforced too. Don't you think when there was a sweep of illegals at Pilgrims Pride earlier this year that the company should have been held accountable for employing hundreds of illegals? Yet they didn't pay one thin dime in fines.
The problem of illegals committing crimes goes away when the illegals stop coming. If some of the vitriol is directed at companies like Pilgrims Pride, maybe then something would be done. These aren't small time farmers looking for lettuce pickers; this is a big company that employed illegals in several states.
I think most of us are on the same side of the issue, but sadly I think some people are racist in here. No, I don't have to read the posts, but if I sit here and say nothing about it, then I'm just as bad as they are.
Do I want something done about immigration? Oh yeah. When I see people coming from other countries and getting into universities here while American kids who deserve to go are being rejected, it makes me very mad. There are some jobs that Americans are perfectly willing to do but can't because an illegal or even a foreigner with a green card has the job and I think that's wrong. But to blame every crime on illegals is incorrect, and it's all some of these folks can manage to come up with.
So you get my drift just fine. You were right when you said "none of us are going to fix the problem sitting behind our computers". That's exactly the point I was trying to make as well.
It worked then, it can work again. I propose putting a bounty on illegals of $1,500 per head.
That would be cheap in the long run if you assume they are abusing our services, hospitals, roads, etc. It would also stimulate the economy by creating new jobs. At $1,500 a head you could make a nice income by rounding up a few a month.
Actually, the SAVE Act has a similar provision. The problem would be the targeting of legal people of foreign descent repeatedly by bounty hunters or vigilantes. If it's done in such a way that people aren't having their front doors smashed in all the time, it may work.
The best part of the SAVE Act is the provision for the fines to companies or individuals who employ illegals - up to $40,000 for the third offense. That might make people a little more careful about who they hire.
These laws quoted that related to employer obligation to ensure a given employee is legally in the U.S. is an interesting; albeit, completely ineffective approach.
The goals need to be to properly maintain the border, a federal respsonsibility. Thereafter, once this has failed to make it impossible for people with no right to work and live in the United States to do so.
Reasonable implementations of this should be supported along with active deportation.
There is a legal mechanism of being in the United States, which is complex and required 3 separating filings before I had my U.S. citizenship, despite being an American Trained Medical Specialist.
The criteria is high and should be. The point to which we completely eliminate any rule that is based upon immigration being of benefit to the United Staes; we harm the country.
There are laws that simply are being unenforced, but need to be. The change in demographics in the U.S. in the next 30-50 years will be dramatic with certain ethnic groups having short reproduction times and large families; but with the professionals taking their time and having 0, 1 or 2 children.
How is all this going to work out for the U.S. come 50 years from now? Both the young and the old requiring a lot of government services, the percentage of highly functional and highly earning individuals declining. It is not the picture of an upwardly mobile society.
If the U.S. took the immigration approach of most other advanced societies and required at minimum the immigrant be a possitive effect on their society and fund their expenses as to not be a burder on society; we'd be so much better off. America already has its homegrown challenges; accepting additional challenges from abroad is extremely foolish and takes a manageable problem to an unmanageble problem.
Simply looking at finances; how are we to function with an older generation needing increased funding and a younger generation who instead of providing this funding are themselves holding their hands out for support. The demographic has changed, and to the extreme threat of the long term success of American Society. A substantial part of this reponsibility is due to non-functional members of society that are home grown, but with the introduction of all the additional numbers that are imported make it a non-manageable situation
The conclusion is that the U.S. will be a downwardly mobile society for reasons that relate to laziness, lack of direction, lack of hard work and also a lack of maintaining one's society, its values and structure. Illegal immigration is a major part of this.
The illegals aren't the entire problem, but they are present at detriment to this society and it is superficial to exam the costs of employement as compared to the uncompared costs to society. We can sustain dealing with our own problem cases who are stupid and have 12 kids by the time they are 30; but importanting a group of people who also do this is not good societal planning.
It's so easy to frame this as racism -- it's not in the least. It has to do with a reasonable expectation that laws will be upheld and people who are present in certain areas deserve to be there.
That overall detrimenets to society are not imported, as we already have plenty of home grown crazy folks that require our help.
The secondary issue is a complete lack of integration to society, maintenance of separation, not learning the language and not having any intent to integrate. It is offensive - I'd never move to Italy and not do my best to speak Italian and integrate culturally.
Individually, many of the "illegals" are good people striving for personal goals which are admirable. However, as we buy into this; we completely fail to look at the societal costs of allowing what is a completely illegal presence. Many, actually, most, are not bad people, but they have no right to be here. A small subgroup are quite bad people and add not only economic insult to the legal population, but also a criminal insult.
The federal government is failing in protecting its legally residing citizens to only need to interact with people that are legally here. This is a failure.
The issue in the previous inquiry about whether I'd like to comment on the specifics of billl X,Y,or Z is really irrelevant as this distracts from the real issue; which is why would we tolerate such a situation at all.
I'm willing to prove my right to live and work in the U.S. at the point that anyone became serious about this and its implementation. It would be a great day when this concept was taken seriously. It would be an even better day when only legally residing or visiting people are present in the U.S. This is how things are supposed to be.
Idealistic ... perhaps -- but I emmigrated to the U.S.as a kid, had to fill out all the papers, get the lawyers and in my 20's get more lawyers to get my citizenship. When I decided some time ago to migrate to another country; I didn't sneak into their country, maintain my language and customs ... instead I made the deep decision that migration means becoming part of the society, and also a need to only legitimately be there if I'm bettering their country; otherwise, I have no business being there. If our immigrants felt this way; these discussions would never be necessary, we'd be thrilled to have each and every one of them.
Why would it be ineffective? If people are coming here for jobs, and you block the employers ability to hire illegals, well...? Some have stated that there are already an influx of foreigners leaving due to lack of work.
I don't think anything you said was racist necessarily (well maybe the bit about having too many kids), but the specifics of "bill X, Y, or Z" are exactly relevant. The situation exists whether someone wants to tolerate it or not, and yes, it's because the laws aren't being enforced. This bill would provide for stronger border security and penalties for companies that employ illegals. It's exactly relevant to everything you said.
It's about a 40 year wait for a Mexican to bring a family member legally to this country. Right wrong or indifferent, that's what it is, so they're going to try to circumvent the law. Not every illegal gets in by running across the desert or hiding in a trunk. They come on some sort of visa and disappear when it expires. Eleven million people didn't come sneaking across in the night.
So why, especially after 9/11, does our government not know the whereabouts of people here on visas (like all of the 9/11 hijackers had?)? That system needs to be fixed as well, not just the physical borders.
As for the language issue, I can understand people's frustration, but it just doesn't bother me. I was working at one hospital in Toronto and all the signs were in English and - get this - Italian! All of Canada has signs in English and French and no one freaks out about that. The NY thruway has signs in English and French and there's no public outcry. But I can understand the anger over being turned down for a job if you can't speak Spanish.
Honestly, you have said nothing. Zero. And what's this "Next!" thing you three do - is that supposed to make me change the subject or something? As if you have the authority to do that. Don't think so...
And Kele, there's only one other post in here on HR 4088 (by you as a matter of fact) and it's like a year old, and not even two pages long. I'd hardly call that "hashed to death". It doesn't even contain any real discussion of it, just a ridiculous discussion of whether it's "mccarthyism".
I suspect the majority who are posting here are doing exactly nothing in terms of proactively fighting against illegal immigration, unless you consider posting repeatedly here being proactive. I don't.
I knew what the response would be to this; I'm not surprised in the least. All hat, no cattle.
Lets see.
I have turned in 2 contractors for using illegals as laborers.
When I see spanish speaking only workers I demand that their boss prove they are illegals or I call the police. I would do the same if it were polish, Russian or asian.
I never hire anyone unless they are licenced contractors with a tax number.
Now what do you do to help fight illegal immigration?
By the way I also write my elected reps and do so at least once per week.
1. 40% of all workers in L. A. County ( L. A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants working without a green card.
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.
4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal , whose births were paid for by taxpayers.
5. Nearly 35% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally
6 . Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.
9. 21 radio stations in L. A. are Spanish speaking.
10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County . )
JDubs Mom, this isnt from the LA Times. Those stats aren't from the Times. Your thread title is "misleading."
In fact, this article you link to DEBUNKS the 1-10 claims you list.
"Internet Letter Alleges L. A. Times Gives Illegal Immigration Stats - HOAX!
"Posted by Jack
"The following was taken from a widely circulated internet letter. It makes some startling statistical claims and from a modest amount of research I found that the claims are either not very accurate or are unsupportable. However, some of the claims regarding crime and inmates are pretty close and that is very troubling. I offer a copy of the letter for your review and also some stats I pulled from the net with sources noted that either support or refute the claims.
Feel free to do your own research, because this is an area that is or ought to be of serious concern to every legitimate American Citizen or legal visitor which makes this internet hoax letter still worth reviewing and debating."
The guy first posts the list, then debunks #1-10, but right within the list it appears you deliberately left out a section: "10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County . ) (Not accurate...The U.S.Census Bureau reported that as of 2004, 3.9 million people in L.A.County spoke only English at home; 3.7 million spoke primarily Spanish at home.)"
<rant>
Am I missing something here? Doesnt anyone check links in posts? You know, Fox news articles start off with misleading or slanted headlines and follow that for the first 50% or longer of the story, and bury the facts at the bottom. This is fact. Why do they do it? Because they know their readers do NOT read far past headlines. Fox knows their readers aren't exactly the curious type.
All due respect, but did you do this deliberately, JDub's Mom? Confident that people who are interested in illegal immigration are not the type to click the link you provided?
Honestly, you have said nothing. Zero. And what's this "Next!" thing you three do - is that supposed to make me change the subject or something? As if you have the authority to do that. Don't think so...
And Kele, there's only one other post in here on HR 4088 (by you as a matter of fact) and it's like a year old, and not even two pages long. I'd hardly call that "hashed to death". It doesn't even contain any real discussion of it, just a ridiculous discussion of whether it's "mccarthyism".
I suspect the majority who are posting here are doing exactly nothing in terms of proactively fighting against illegal immigration, unless you consider posting repeatedly here being proactive. I don't.
I knew what the response would be to this; I'm not surprised in the least. All hat, no cattle.
Try looking under "the Dream Act" or the "Save Act." It's definitely been discussed by more than just me.
I won't even go into the number of lumps I've taken in the fight against illegal immigration--I'll carry the physical repercussions for the rest of my life. That doesn't include the number of phone calls I've made, the letters I've written, faxes I've sent, representative's office's I've "visited", the number of times I've marched in hostile environments--and I am not the only one on this forum involved in activist movements. I've only been gone from Lost Angeles a year--and I spent four years in that state on the front lines of this fight--many more in Texas before that.
It's rather prescriptive of you to assume that the majority of people posting here are no more than keyboard commandos. We come here to blow off steam and vent our frustrations against a government which, rather than being the government of the people, by the people, for the people--is now the government of the highest bidder and whatever special interest group makes the most noise.
You come riding in here with your drawers aflame, chastening the rest of us for our lack of concrete action on illegal immigration when you really have no clue as to what we do with the rest of our lives. It is rather presumptuous on your part to assume that this forum is the sum and total of anyone's efforts in the fight against illegal immigration.
JDubs Mom, this isnt from the LA Times. Those stats aren't from the Times. Your thread title is "misleading."
In fact, this article you link to DEBUNKS the 1-10 claims you list.
"Internet Letter Alleges L. A. Times Gives Illegal Immigration Stats - HOAX!
"Posted by Jack
"The following was taken from a widely circulated internet letter. It makes some startling statistical claims and from a modest amount of research I found that the claims are either not very accurate or are unsupportable. However, some of the claims regarding crime and inmates are pretty close and that is very troubling. I offer a copy of the letter for your review and also some stats I pulled from the net with sources noted that either support or refute the claims.
Feel free to do your own research, because this is an area that is or ought to be of serious concern to every legitimate American Citizen or legal visitor which makes this internet hoax letter still worth reviewing and debating."
The guy first posts the list, then debunks #1-10, but right within the list it appears you deliberately left out a section: "10. In L. A. County 5.1 million people speak English, 3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L. A. County . ) (Not accurate...The U.S.Census Bureau reported that as of 2004, 3.9 million people in L.A.County spoke only English at home; 3.7 million spoke primarily Spanish at home.)"
<rant>
Am I missing something here? Doesnt anyone check links in posts? You know, Fox news articles start off with misleading or slanted headlines and follow that for the first 50% or longer of the story, and bury the facts at the bottom. This is fact. Why do they do it? Because they know their readers do NOT read far past headlines. Fox knows their readers aren't exactly the curious type.
All due respect, but did you do this deliberately, JDub's Mom? Confident that people who are interested in illegal immigration are not the type to click the link you provided?
</rant>
Make that: ["Rant" unjustified./] To answer your question you are indeed missing the ability to COMPREHEND WHAT YOU READ.
FYI: I provide links with everything that I post. Said links have been clicked on by hundreds who visit this forum and have read the stories that accompany them; including but not limited to several moderators. Yet you come out of the "shadows" hurling false accusations and character attacks, based upon - what? Feel free to go through this entire forum and click on each and every story and link that I have ever posted in your attempt to justify your delusionally false accusations of and personal attacks upon my integrity. That being said, the LINK CLEARLY SPECIFIES that the data is courtesy of:
Main Entryost·script Pronunciation: \ˈpōs(t)-ˌskript\ Function: a note or series of notes appended to a completed letter, article, or book
Thread title: Post Scripts: From the LA Times . . .
The original statistics were indeed posted in the LA Times. Simply because "Jack" (whose letter to PostScripts you are using as evidence/justification of your personal attack against my character) disagrees with them simply means that one guy + you are claiming that what the LA Times published was false. Feel free to post a link that proves that the statistics are false. Otherwise, refrain from insulting and personally attacking ME and DENIGRATING MY CHARACTER.
You people really are desperate in the worst possible sense of the word. Keep searching, I've posted a multitude of stories complete with links. Maybe you should try your luck again and go back and click on every single one of them in your sad attempt to discredit the links to stories I post. Hopefully the fact that they are all indeed LEGITIMATE will somehow appease your delusional paranoia.
COMPREHENSION IS ALWAYS KEY TO UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU READ.
NEWS AND INFORMATION YOU CAN USE!
Last edited by JDubsMom; 12-06-2008 at 10:53 AM..
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Them there illegals
ost·script 
