Multiculturalism: One American woman's story (license, legal, Mexican border, drivers)
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Dang guys, you bring up some very valid points. It really does come down to what cultural behavior do we allow and what do we consider off the table. Too bad the ACLU can't use actual logic in transforming their agenda.
Regardless of WHY people act violently....culture, poverty, instability, 'gang mentality', or a need for brute 'dominance', why would I, or anyone else, want to IMPORT such people into my society? We have plenty of problems here....and have worked long and hard to gradually get OUR violence under control....and now I'm supposed to want MORE violent people, so we can start the whole thing OVER? WHY, for heaven's sake, would I want THAT?
I don't care what the Amish "might do" if they were bombed....nor do I care what the residents of some Islamic theocracy "would do" if they had a lot of money, a nice girlfriend, and a Western liberal-arts education..I care about what people "DO do", and that's how I judge them...by what they do....and when they "do" acts of violence with a dismaying regularity, over a whole broad range of 'reasons', then it matters little to me if that's 'culture', or 'anger', or just a 'lifestyle'..I don't want it here. Those who live by THAT lifestyle at home, will have to CHANGE it before moving here, if they hope to get my welcome.
If my aunt were a man, she MIGHT be my uncle...but she isn't....and she's not. And the Amish aren't violent, and some cultures are. Why? I don't know.
So environment doesn't influence attitudes? Umm...every psychologist would disagree with you.
Environment has more to do with it than being "Arab" or "Mexican" or whatever.
This is how problems get started in the US, people not realizing context.
"Oh, over in a poor, war torn nation, they act violent... They'll be the same here!!!" No...they won't.
Environment dictates behavior A LOT. EVERY psychologist will tell you that.
So environment doesn't influence attitudes? Umm...every psychologist would disagree with you.
Environment has more to do with it than being "Arab" or "Mexican" or whatever.
This is how problems get started in the US, people not realizing context.
"Oh, over in a poor, war torn nation, they act violent... They'll be the same here!!!" No...they won't.
Environment dictates behavior A LOT. EVERY psychologist will tell you that.
So taking 4-8 years of College to be a Psychologist makes them all experts? I was in the same classes as these so called scholars and most of them acted like they could use some shrink-ism themselves.
I have only fought one non-white in my entire life.
To be honest, 95% of pricks in my life have been of European descent. However, only two groups have ever seemed to so obsessed with how they tough they are were immigrants from the Former Yugoslavia and Lebanese Australians. By the way, both are considered racially caucasian. If you are going to imply that I am a racist or racialist, please take into account that the cultures I am criticizing belong to the same racial group as myself.
I will point out that it is true, Irish and Italians were feared and disliked as much (possibly even moreso) than Mexicans. I even said so on another thread on this subforum. But I would like to point out that many Irish and Italian communities did have higher crime rates and more social problems. Many Italians were hostile towards the idea assimilation and it took decades for Italian culture to become mainstream in many areas. The Italians also introduced various forms of organized crime to the US (the Mafia being the most famous, but by no means the only one) and the vendetta. Also, there are also other things to consider, Mexican culture is a fair bit different than American culture (although closer to American culture than Middle Eastern and Asian cultures), also we are talking about a lot more people than the European immigration of the 1880-1930 period and all from one country. And illegal immigrants are likely to bring more social problems than legal immigrants. Why? Because there are going to be more people coming over that way that would never be able to immigrate legally.
I have personal experience in this, you need to take into account that in many cases it depends on who the immigrants are and how they assimilate into the country. For example, early Cuban immigrants were extremely successful in American society, but the Mariel refuees had a disproportionate amount of scumbags, mostly because Castro used it as a chance to dump the most violent Cuban prisoners on the US.
And I'll concede a few "bad white people culture". Consider the South up until let's say that late 70s. How would you explain the vitrolic racism of the South other than culture? Damn, how could have so many white people been so hostile towards blacks? It must have something to do with economics! No, wait... Hmmm, the majority of whites despised blacks and they ranged from wealthy Southern whites to dirt poor farmers who were poorer than most urban blacks of the time. So it is neither class resentment nor elitism.
How would you explain the racially motived violence and just plain old hatred of blacks in the South?
My implication was that you were not racist, but rather culturally elitist, or culturally sheltered, maybe ignorant (not with any connotation, but simply relying on heuristics and not going deeper into the issues. I never stated you were racist.
Ireland was the darling of Europe. It had lower than average EU crime rates. Here, as in Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa...you'd be hard pressed to find statistical differences between Irish crimes and others (they don't have numbers for "Irish" crimes...so there's one reason why you'd be hard press). However, given the environment they lived in, it is quite logical to high higher crime rates. So again, this shows that this notion of being uncivillized is simply cultural fear/elitism/intolerance.
As for "bad white people culture" you clearly missed my point. I'm saying its dependent on the context of the situation (economics, education, political stability...not something inherent). The South was economically based on slave labor. To justify slavery and make A LOT of money, Whites degraded Blacks to make them "sub human". Thus, there is no conflict of ideals of treating humans right and having slave labor. During this time social Darwinism (responsible for the comments made in this thread of bad and good cultures, as well as much of the Illegal Immigration section) was the school of thought. Blacks were depicted and painted as sub human to reinforce that they were not human. This also created a heirarchy in which poor whites can feel better and be socially higher. So again it was economic based, not simply "I hate Blacks". Most historians will tell you that elitism, class, and economics were a HUGE role in Southern race relations.
So taking 4-8 years of College to be a Psychologist makes them all experts? I was in the same classes as these so called scholars and most of them acted like they could use some shrink-ism themselves.
Well...seeing how they are actually in the field for longer than 4-8 years...and teach at prestigious schools...I'd rather take their word than a person who disliked their classes. No offense, but they seem a little more credible. So, be that as it may, there are also historians, sociologists, and others who would also agree.
Environment dictates behavior A LOT. EVERY psychologist will tell you that.
You're absolutely correct, environment most certainly DOES dictate behavior'....and when some people encounter a frustrating environment, they get together and seek ways to change it. When others encounter a frustrating environment, they seek ways to "lash out" at others, and blame them....and occasionally riot, or blow things up, or kill people. TWO examples of behavior, both dictated by environment. When you're raised in an environment of violence, that environment dictates your behavior....violent. For once, we agree.
And I have no control over people's 'environment', a good part of which they bring about themselves, through their way of living, or with forming alliances (or failing to), or of solving life's problems, their receptiveness (or lack of it)to new ideas, or their insistence on 'doing things the hard way' or not. And since I can't tell people how to LIVE, I therefore can't control whether or not they'll get "frustrated"....and when they get "frustrated" at the condition they're in, much of which is their own 'doing' (since they're adults), I don't want them lashing out at ME. Therefore, I don't want to be around them, until such time as they learn to stop "lashing out", and get in the habit of settling things peacefully and trusting each other.
Some people use violence to address problems in their lives. WHY they do this is beyond my ability to influence..(and quite likely, beyond my ability to understand)....in the same way that MY way of doing things may be quite beyond THEIR ability to understand, or to empathize with. MY way of dealing with things, in fact, may seem quite 'wimpy' to some people....and that's OK. I like peace, cooperation, and trust. Just call me a 'wimp', I guess. I just have no desire to make every social interaction a 'face-off', or an 'ultimatum', or to wonder whether I'm 'losing face'. Guess I'm just not very 'macho'. But I don't miss it, really.
I can go to school, if I want, and study the behavior of prison gangs. I can become well-versed on WHAT they do to each other, exactly the sorts of mayhem they commit; the 'insults', the 'signs', and exactly what 'sets off a riot'..and I can learn why these guys FEEL the way they do, and what their 'grievances' are. I can probably, if I want, become a LEADING AUTHORITY on the subject...but even so, at the end of the day, that doesn't mean I'd want to LIVE in a prison among convicts.
WHY violent groups are violent is not my problem....my problem is to avoid that behavior on my part, and to keep it away from my life, and do my best not to 'incite' violence in those prone to it. That may not be 'helping', but it's the best I can do.
As for "bad white people culture" you clearly missed my point. I'm saying its dependent on the context of the situation (economics, education, political stability...not something inherent). The South was economically based on slave labor. To justify slavery and make A LOT of money, Whites degraded Blacks to make them "sub human". Thus, there is no conflict of ideals of treating humans right and having slave labor. During this time social Darwinism (responsible for the comments made in this thread of bad and good cultures, as well as much of the Illegal Immigration section) was the school of thought. Blacks were depicted and painted as sub human to reinforce that they were not human. This also created a heirarchy in which poor whites can feel better and be socially higher. So again it was economic based, not simply "I hate Blacks". Most historians will tell you that elitism, class, and economics were a HUGE role in Southern race relations.
So all this explanation of Southern white "attitudes"..facts, figures, reasons, etc.... yet not one BIT of it is even remotely related to 'culture'. Why am I not surprised?
Meanwhile, I will say this..regardless of WHY Southern whites "beat up" on blacks...or WHY they "dehumanized" them....or WHAT economic forces led to this abominable state of affairs...or HOW badly Southern 'crackers' felt about THEMSELVES....or WHAT 'demons' they were grappling with, or HOW much they 'needed someone to look down on'....you've STILL set a scenario here of a group with a WELL-deserved reputation of acting HORRIBLY...and if I were Black, and the situation was as you described it...then I'd have absolutely NO desire to live around Southern whites...to interact with them..or to even have to "hear" their voices.....and I don't care if you refuse to use the term 'culture' or not; that's quite beside the point...MY reaction to your scenario, as a Black, would be that I'd have NO patience with Southern whites...REGARDLESS of what 'drove' them to behave so abominably toward MY group.
So all this explanation of Southern white "attitudes"..facts, figures, reasons, etc.... yet not one BIT of it is even remotely related to 'culture'. Why am I not surprised?
Meanwhile, I will say this..regardless of WHY Southern whites "beat up" on blacks...or WHY they "dehumanized" them....or WHAT economic forces led to this abominable state of affairs...or HOW badly Southern 'crackers' felt about THEMSELVES....or WHAT 'demons' they were grappling with, or HOW much they 'needed someone to look down on'....you've STILL set a scenario here of a group with a WELL-deserved reputation of acting HORRIBLY...and if I were Black, and the situation was as you described it...then I'd have absolutely NO desire to live around Southern whites...to interact with them..or to even have to "hear" their voices.....and I don't care if you refuse to use the term 'culture' or not; that's quite beside the point...MY reaction to your scenario, as a Black, would be that I'd have NO patience with Southern whites...REGARDLESS of what 'drove' them to behave so abominably toward MY group.
To fix a problem...you need to know what the problem is. To solve and create a better nation, you need to know ALL aspects so you don't repeat the past.
WHY violent groups are violent is not my problem....my problem is to avoid that behavior on my part, and to keep it away from my life, and do my best not to 'incite' violence in those prone to it. That may not be 'helping', but it's the best I can do.
Then why post to begin with? Do you simply want to complain? How do you even know when a person is prone to violence if you don't know why?
Good that you are open-minded. Interesting you should mention the "quinceanera". My 15 year old daughter just attended a HUGE one last week, and was invited to ride in the limousine. Great fun.
You mention that "people in this country shouldn't have to give up their culture". You're aware, I'm sure, that in some parts of the world, young girls are 'married off' to older men they've never met. Some people run around naked, paint their bodies, and spear animals for dinner. Some people forbid their daughters to get an education. Some people feel 'justified' by society in beating an errant wife, and occasionally, in the remoter parts of Borneo or Papua New Guinea, the local police are dispatched out into the forest because SOME people decided to eat their neighbor for supper. It's getting rare, but it occasionally still happens.
How would you take these people, bring them to live in an American suburb, and put them on the path to a successful, independent, self-supporting future as Americans, while not asking them to change their culture(s)? And if they KEPT their cultures, in American suburbia, do you envision them having any problems with their neighbors?
Just asking....
I think as long as long as they do not try impose the culture on others I respect their way of life. If in their culture is ok for them to give their daughters to older men in marriage, or if they want to run around naked or with their body's painted who am I to tell them that their way of life is wrong and I'm right, and that my way is the only way.
Now, if it's my sister or in the future my daughter they want to give up in marriage, if they force other people to go around naked or body painted; then it's the only time I have a problem.
And what is wrong with people hunting with spears for food. Here in the U.S. you can get legal permits to hunt with bow and arrow, or with rifles.
The same way, people from other cultures could argue that the practices here like football, boxing, being able to buy an assault rifle at a gun show with nothing more than a drivers license, and surgically castrating your own pets are barbaric.
I'm a big fan of bullfighting , and have been to "Las Ventas" in Madrid, "La Plaza de Acho" in Peru and multiple other smaller venues, my grandfather used to be a bullfighter when he was young. I have also ran naked and eaten all kinds of animals whose names I don't even remember back in the Colombian-Brazilian-Peruvian jungle. Who am I to tell all this people that the way they live is wrong. And who are them to tell me that what I do is wrong. It's just different.
Culture, especially the U.S. culture, is constantly evolving. Things that are frowned upon now will not be in the future, and viceversa. And I think accepting other people includes acknowledging that they are different and even getting to know some of their cultures. Even incorporating into yours the things that you like.
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