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I don't have competition from Ilegals work wise because I have a niche market. I do have to listen to my buddies in construction tell me about being undercut by Illegals in the construction industry.
Where I am being personally hit is 2 thefts, their kids in my kid's school, competing in line at ER's and Hospitals and accidents that involve Illegals with no license or insurance.
Illegals bring negative across the board not just undercutting labor.
I don't have competition from Ilegals work wise because I have a niche market. I do have to listen to my buddies in construction tell me about being undercut by Illegals in the construction industry.
Where I am being personally hit is 2 thefts, their kids in my kid's school, competing in line at ER's and Hospitals and accidents that involve Illegals with no license or insurance.
Illegals bring negative across the board not just undercutting labor.
Sounds like some pretty compelling reasons you'd be upset....even WITHOUT personally 'losing your job to an illegal'. This whole thread is rather silly, anyway. Canvassing a group of posters opposed to illegal immigration by asking "WHO among you has ACTUALLY lost his job", is like a discussion about crime, in which someone asks "How many of you, in the past year, have been raped? How many have been mugged? How many have had their car stolen ?". This information would have almost NO relevance to the discussion. It's just an obfuscation...a 'side-issue' to take away attention from the discussion at hand.
So if I HAVEN'T lost my job to an illegal..(one whom I can NAME, and furnish an ADDRESS for), then I have no business being opposed to illegals?
Sorry...I'm not buying that lie of reasoning. I don't have dysentery, or the swine flu, or diabetes, either....but I'm still concerned about them, and I know they're not "good".
Sounds like some pretty compelling reasons you'd be upset....even WITHOUT personally 'losing your job to an illegal'. This whole thread is rather silly, anyway. Canvassing a group of posters opposed to illegal immigration by asking "WHO among you has ACTUALLY lost his job", is like a discussion about crime, in which someone asks "How many of you, in the past year, have been raped? How many have been mugged? How many have had their car stolen ?". This information would have almost NO relevance to the discussion. It's just an obfuscation...a 'side-issue' to take away attention from the discussion at hand.
So if I HAVEN'T lost my job to an illegal..(one whom I can NAME, and furnish an ADDRESS for), then I have no business being opposed to illegals?
Sorry...I'm not buying that lie of reasoning. I don't have dysentery, or the swine flu, or diabetes, either....but I'm still concerned about them, and I know they're not "good".
Slight derailment, I had H1N1 two weeks ago and it wasn't what I would call a picnic Talk about a waste of a 3 day weekend.
Sounds like some pretty compelling reasons you'd be upset....even WITHOUT personally 'losing your job to an illegal'. This whole thread is rather silly, anyway. Canvassing a group of posters opposed to illegal immigration by asking "WHO among you has ACTUALLY lost his job", is like a discussion about crime, in which someone asks "How many of you, in the past year, have been raped? How many have been mugged? How many have had their car stolen ?". This information would have almost NO relevance to the discussion. It's just an obfuscation...a 'side-issue' to take away attention from the discussion at hand.
So if I HAVEN'T lost my job to an illegal..(one whom I can NAME, and furnish an ADDRESS for), then I have no business being opposed to illegals?
Sorry...I'm not buying that lie of reasoning. I don't have dysentery, or the swine flu, or diabetes, either....but I'm still concerned about them, and I know they're not "good".
Your rationale is flawed since you are comparing things that produce specific, undisputed results (swine flu, dysentery, etc.) with something that produces disputed and unspecific results (illegal immigration). To classify such a complex issue as good or bad, is almost impossible.
Again, there really is no way to tell how much (if at all) do illegal immigrants impact in depressing wages or taking away jobs. There are MANY variables to be accounted for (actual demand for such jobs, markets serviced, socio-economic considerations, etc.) Why a job leaves and who it goes to is a really tricky thing to measure...unlike diabetes.
Sounds like some pretty compelling reasons you'd be upset....even WITHOUT personally 'losing your job to an illegal'. This whole thread is rather silly, anyway. Canvassing a group of posters opposed to illegal immigration by asking "WHO among you has ACTUALLY lost his job", is like a discussion about crime, in which someone asks "How many of you, in the past year, have been raped? How many have been mugged? How many have had their car stolen ?". This information would have almost NO relevance to the discussion. It's just an obfuscation...a 'side-issue' to take away attention from the discussion at hand.
So if I HAVEN'T lost my job to an illegal..(one whom I can NAME, and furnish an ADDRESS for), then I have no business being opposed to illegals?
Sorry...I'm not buying that lie of reasoning. I don't have dysentery, or the swine flu, or diabetes, either....but I'm still concerned about them, and I know they're not "good".
I didn't see you complaining when the OP directed that question to those with a different view on this issue.
Your rationale is flawed since you are comparing things that produce specific, undisputed results (swine flu, dysentery, etc.) with something that produces disputed and unspecific results (illegal immigration). To classify such a complex issue as good or bad, is almost impossible.
Again, there really is no way to tell how much (if at all) do illegal immigrants impact in depressing wages or taking away jobs. There are MANY variables to be accounted for (actual demand for such jobs, markets serviced, socio-economic considerations, etc.) Why a job leaves and who it goes to is a really tricky thing to measure...unlike diabetes.
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are those among us who would dispute you....who would say that swine flu may be "bad"...but its deleterious effects are 'debatable'.....who would say that dysentery may cause some "transitory discomfort", but that other things are worse, and that dysentery, in the grand scheme of things, is of only minor importance. Who would tell you that MOST victims of swine flu, AND of dysentery, do not fatally succumb to these diseases, but survive...so therefore. "not to worry". In a sense, some people would say that a bout with a disease "builds character". Some people, somewhere, will say just about ANYTHING....and often do.
The same observation applies here. 15 million illegals, or 20 million..or 85 million, it wouldn't matter. SOME person, from somewhere on the forum, would offer the observation that "the effects of illegal immigration are a matter of dispute", and that there was "no definitive proof that illegal immigration had any specific, quantitative negative effect on any facet of American society". Some people would say "there's no proof, in fact, that we have ANY illegals....since you can't furnish their names, ages, or addresses."
Those people are perfectly welcome to their opinions. They can, if they choose, cite 'statistics' all they want...or not. (One who does this frequently appears on the post just above this one...note his typical 'one-liner' response to my rather lengthy posts). At some point, though, I just have to give up on the 'figures' and the 'tables', and fall back on common sense. Call me 'primitive' if you must....
The effects of illegal immigration are 'debatable'? Well...OK....And so are the effects of child molestation, corporate pollution, and stock-market plundering. ALL of these things have their 'supporters' as well as their 'detractors'. Yet I have no problem taking a 'stand' on any one of these issues...NOR with the issue of illegal immigraton.
I didn't see you complaining when the OP directed that question to those with a different view on this issue.
And I don't see you saying much of ANYTHING, ever.....except to hurl little 'barbs' at others. Any original thoughts? Anything you have to offer, longer than 1 or 2 sentences? I'm sure we'd give you our attention..even a rebuttal, if you want.
Other than that, a 'jab' is just a jab.....and anyone can make a jab. Feel free to continue to do so...
And I don't see you saying much of ANYTHING, ever.....except to hurl little 'barbs' at others. Any original thoughts? Anything you have to offer, longer than 1 or 2 sentences? I'm sure we'd give you our attention..even a rebuttal, if you want.
Other than that, a 'jab' is just a jab.....and anyone can make a jab. Feel free to continue to do so...
I am just pointing out your hypocrisy on this thread that's all. I still don't get why you find it okay for the OP to ask "pro-illegals" if they have actually lost jobs to illegals, but it's not okay for the same to be asked of the other side.
[quote=macmeal;10315532]I have no doubt whatsoever that there are those among us who would dispute you....who would say that swine flu may be "bad"...but its deleterious effects are 'debatable'.....who would say that dysentery may cause some "transitory discomfort", but that other things are worse, and that dysentery, in the grand scheme of things, is of only minor importance. Who would tell you that MOST victims of swine flu, AND of dysentery, do not fatally succumb to these diseases, but survive...so therefore. "not to worry". In a sense, some people would say that a bout with a disease "builds character". Some people, somewhere, will say just about ANYTHING....and often do.
You're joking right? You seriously are trying to paint a gradiation? Yes, there are varying effects, yet they all share a common thread. Hence why these viruses and bacteria all have the same name. H1N1 for example has a glycolipid at H1 and N1. Though the severity may be different from person to person, many of the same symptoms persist. The reason for this being that each individual H1N1 virus is genetically similar. Hence, even in the "grand scheme" of things you know that this virus is able to do harm under certain circumstances...it's predictable. This is why children and the elderly are more at risk. This things are predictable...since we can run tests and see the deleterious effects of these diseases.
The same observation applies here. 15 million illegals, or 20 million..or 85 million, it wouldn't matter. SOME person, from somewhere on the forum, would offer the observation that "the effects of illegal immigration are a matter of dispute", and that there was "no definitive proof that illegal immigration had any specific, quantitative negative effect on any facet of American society". Some people would say "there's no proof, in fact, that we have ANY illegals....since you can't furnish their names, ages, or addresses."
No, humans are not as predictable. There are too many variables. This is where your analogy breaks down. If you place an elderly person in a sterile environment with no trace of H1N1, they will not get H1N1. If you introduce the virus in the same environment, they will may get the virus. The other factor is immunity. Here, we don't know...since 12-15 million people along with economic considerations and social considerations...it's simply too many variables. Considering that unemployment was at 5-6% in the 2005, where many consider the peak of illegal immigration, this flies directly in contradiction with those that said "illegal immigrants are stealing jobs"
Those people are perfectly welcome to their opinions. They can, if they choose, cite 'statistics' all they want...or not. (One who does this frequently appears on the post just above this one...note his typical 'one-liner' response to my rather lengthy posts). At some point, though, I just have to give up on the 'figures' and the 'tables', and fall back on common sense. Call me 'primitive' if you must....
Common sense is really relying on heuristics that are tainted with bias. If we don't have reliable data, then what's to stop from making ridiculous claims based on hunches.
The effects of illegal immigration are 'debatable'? Well...OK....And so are the effects of child molestation, corporate pollution, and stock-market plundering. ALL of these things have their 'supporters' as well as their 'detractors'. Yet I have no problem taking a 'stand' on any one of these issues...NOR with the issue of illegal immigraton.
Again, please make an apples to apples comparison. Child molestation creates pyschological as well as pysiological trauma to its victims. Lower immunity to diseases, higher instances of alcoholism and drug abuse, higher rates of depression...Corporate pollution directly destroys the ecosystem. Stock market plundering, according to game theory, will lead to a class of rich and poor only. According to game theory, all persons benefit under cooperation. Also, historical trends prove that this is a bad idea. (1890s, 1930s, 1980s, 2000s). [/quote]
Please make and apples to apples comparison. Something with a high amount of variables, something that can't be proven by historical trends. something less tangible. Drug legalization...it could work as a good comparison (too many variables, can't be proven by historical trends, and since it deals with law...not tangible).
The biggest factors that "reduces many middle class jobs" are automation is outsourcing. The blue collar collapse...not illegal immigration.
The decline of the middle class can be attributed to several factors -- automation and outsourcing are only two. Illegal immigration, albeit not exclusively responsible for our problems, certainly cannot be ignored as being a major factor; whether you choose to agree or not.
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Talk about a waste of a 3 day weekend. 
