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I'm not going to nit pick through your post, but I will respond to this little bit. It's something I say all the time. Supply does not create the demand. What people want is irrelevant when business and HR have the upper hand. If they want to hire somebody for 30K, they will. Heck, if they want to hire someone for 25K, they can probably do it.
Will they work hard? Well, did American's really ever work that exceptionally hard in the 90's or beyond? How much goofing off on the internet was commonplace this last decade? Why did so many companies have to block access? I'll tell ya what though, I have seen quite a bit more hustling on the part of American workers I have encountered in the private sector these past few years. They are scared, on the verge of loosing it, and they do not want to be among the ranks of the unemployed. If someone won't work hard for 30K, I will find you tons of people in 3 days who will.
Actually, I'm going to beg to differ on your last point (in this post, I think your post about cheerleading the death of unions is spot on).
When I scout out clients, I look at want ads. If someone is advertising, they are most likely short-staffed. Helping out in the interim is a great way for a freelancer to get a foot in the door.
After seeing an ad for a writer, I recently sent a letter of introduction to a trade mag. The editor called me and said they use freelancers, although they probably couldn't afford me. (He was right: No, I am not writing a 1,500-word piece requiring five interviews for $500. 1975 called. They want their rates back.)
Later in the conversation, he mentioned that he might have some wiggle room on the rates because he was anticipating having a need until they fill the position. "The search isn't going as well as I'd hoped," he said. "We're not getting that many responses, and what we're getting isn't really what we need, and I don't know why."
I had to bite my tongue. I'll tell him why:
He wants a "gifted" reporter with 3-5 years of experience, who will "do what it takes," including staying late into the night the week before a deadline, and who will write 6 or 7 stories per issue as well as edit the work of freelancers; he's in Manhattan; and he's offering $30-35K.
No. In 2007, a job like that requiring a little more experience (7 years) went for $70K in NY. I know, because I had one. Even with the economy, the same job now isn't going to go for half of that. People may be out of work, but they aren't stupid.
Did you know the nazi's had massive store houses full of gold, silver and art work that they confiscated, even if they made it to a neighboring nation the nazis also emptied out the museums in france and surrounding nations. When you have the might of the US military without their hands tied and the incentive to loot it would be a dark day for everyone else. You can basicly look at everything that happened in germany and figure on that happening again.
The bahamas are not that far away for a carrier group.
Well, Thailand is another popular destination for the better off. There are plenty of places to go. And I have to believe that the government is not stupid enough to try any Nazi tactics. As a population, we are the best armed people on Earth. There are more guns in the hands of U.S. citizens than people in this country. We also like our assets in our names.
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Originally Posted by RedJacket
You people? As in me? Never ever assume anything. I've always said unions were the great equalizer for American workers and when their numbers starting dropping in the 70s, so did wages.
And for the last 30 years or so that phenom has increased at an increasing rate.
Public sector unions have given private sector unions a bad name.
I speak of no one personally, but the masses as a whole. I do believe as a whole, the American people are easily manipulated and likely stupid. The lack of competition all these years has apparently caused evolution to work in reverse. Now Americans are scrambling trying to figure out what went wrong.
You're missing my point, which is that employers are NOT giving "substantial raises" for doing 80 hours of unpaid work. If you received that years ago working for an online accounting service, well, that was then. This is now. It's an educated guess that you wouldn't get the same raise now.
That was 2009, which was the last time I was an employee. In talking with many of my alumni it's not different now. Salaried accountants have always done hours "unpaid" work. That's what being salaried means and has always meant. Pre-recession, a new hire at one of the big public accounting agencies could expect work 70 hours a week for a $70,000 salary and up to $20,000 in bonuses. Working an "unpaid" 30 hours a week has always been part of the job. What's changed is advancement. I know a few who are still in entry level positions four years later. The big accountants have no need to fill non-entry level positions so they aren't sending as many of them off to get their MBAs which means there aren't as many positions for new graduates. That's been true since 2007, so, yes, I would have gotten the same raise now as I did then.
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You and Andy can talk about "supply and demand" all you like, but that is no excuse for treating people poorly. The U.S. is not a Third World nation--yet. But if employers keep shipping jobs overseas with impunity, if labor doesn't come together, if the people don't stand up and tell their lawmakers to stop catering to exploiters, and if we don't see a resurgence of unions, that's the path we're headed down.
Eventually people will wake up. Frankly, I'm surprised we haven't had riots yet. But the time will come when people either throw the idiots who cater to Wall Street, exploitative employers, and other various and sundry among the top 2%, or things will get ugly and people will revolt in less civil ways. When the change comes, and it will, those who treated their employees poorly--the TARP recipients who laid off the mailroom clerks and used the money to pad their bonuses, the companies who shipped their jobs overseas, the power-tripping middle managers, and everyone else who behaved badly "just because they could"--will all be screaming that good help is hard to find, just like they did during the Clinton years.
Mark my words. You read it here first.
Uh, supply and demand is a fact of life. Where was your outrage ten, twenty, or two hundred years ago? I didn't see manufacturing "screaming that good help is hard to find" during the Clinton years. Engineers yes, unskilled assembly-line workers no. During the last three years of Clinton's presidency, 30% of the manufacturing jobs in America were lost. Thirty percent. In three years. Trust me, there wasn't any screaming by manufacturers going bankrupt and moving operations overseas that "good help is hard to come by."
So the Manhattan guy who wants to fill a what was 70k position can't find any supply at 35k. Hello. Supply and demand. There just may not be any demand at 70k any longer and then, like all those American manufacturing jobs, the news reporters will go the way of the dodo replaced not by cheap Chinese labor but by bloggers. Five years ago, that would have scared me. With what passes for "professional" journalism these days, however, I can't say it does any longer. Seems like the guys being paid 30k aren't any better than the bloggers that do it for free to me. Why pay for what you can get for free?
I have met very few professionals who made good money who didn't put at least 55 hours a week in the office,
I've averaged right around 40 hours/week for my entire career as a software developer, as have most my coworkers. Maybe some of the go-getters were closer to 45, but norm is probably 40-45.
I agree. Someone just made up the number (40) and suddenly every second you have to work past that is some kind of a tremendous, unreasonable burden.
A lot of that comes from people used to the concept of punching a clock and being paid by the hour, with OT kicking in after 40 hours in a given week.
Many people familiar with this concept fail to understand that in many salaried positions (such as in many white collar jobs) one is paid a salary to do a job, not to work a pre-specified number of hours. Which is not always a bad thing. There are advantages to not having to punch a clock.
Which is not always a bad thing. There are advantages to not having to punch a clock.
Indeed. As I mentioned sometimes you're working a little longer but there is also the flip side of the occasional early happy hour or just being able to casually mention that you'll be back in a couple hours because of dentist or dog to vet or meeting cable TV guy etc.
Uh, supply and demand is a fact of life. Where was your outrage ten, twenty, or two hundred years ago? I didn't see manufacturing "screaming that good help is hard to find" during the Clinton years. Engineers yes, unskilled assembly-line workers no. During the last three years of Clinton's presidency, 30% of the manufacturing jobs in America were lost. Thirty percent. In three years. Trust me, there wasn't any screaming by manufacturers going bankrupt and moving operations overseas that "good help is hard to come by."
So the Manhattan guy who wants to fill a what was 70k position can't find any supply at 35k. Hello. Supply and demand. There just may not be any demand at 70k any longer and then, like all those American manufacturing jobs, the news reporters will go the way of the dodo replaced not by cheap Chinese labor but by bloggers. Five years ago, that would have scared me. With what passes for "professional" journalism these days, however, I can't say it does any longer. Seems like the guys being paid 30k aren't any better than the bloggers that do it for free to me. Why pay for what you can get for free?
Actually, I've been on labor's side since the Clinton years. Ex-Reaganite here. I grew up and got some compassion. I don't believe that a shortage of jobs should mandate barbaric behavior and exploitation. Going back to my earlier posts, the U.S. is not a Third-World nation. Or, shouldn't be.
Couldn't tell you about 200 years ago, and somehow, I don't think anyone else here could, either.
But why do you think professional journalism is what it is now, at least on a local level? Could it be that publishers are getting what they pay for? Like with Patch? Not exactly Pulitzer material, there, agreed.
Over the years there have been lots of layoffs of seasoned veterans who were then replaced with cubs (lower salaries) and interns (free labor) for certain things. That was before the economic downturn, for completely different reasons. Newspapers shot themselves in the foot by trying to stick to the print business model (based on ads) when they went online, and they are behind the proverbial 8 ball, but the NYT and a few others have caught on. You can only get so much content there free of charge now.
However, without getting too far off topic here, if you're getting your "news" from bloggers, you're getting unadulterated opinion, with no fact-checking, no original research, and no original interviews. Good luck with that. IMO, you're better off just watching Stewart and Colbert. And not for nothing, but you're confusing a trade pub, which is what I was talking about, with mainstream media and major news outlets. It's not the same animal. The big stories and hard news are still handled by people with chops, and they're not making $35K. The local stuff and the fluff go to the interns and cubs.
Actually, I've been on labor's side since the Clinton years. Ex-Reaganite here. I grew up and got some compassion. I don't believe that a shortage of jobs should mandate barbaric behavior and exploitation. Going back to my earlier posts, the U.S. is not a Third-World nation. Or, shouldn't be.
Couldn't tell you about 200 years ago, and somehow, I don't think anyone else here could, either.
But why do you think professional journalism is what it is now, at least on a local level? Could it be that publishers are getting what they pay for? Like with Patch? Not exactly Pulitzer material, there, agreed.
Over the years there have been lots of layoffs of seasoned veterans who were then replaced with cubs (lower salaries) and interns (free labor) for certain things. That was before the economic downturn, for completely different reasons. Newspapers shot themselves in the foot by trying to stick to the print business model (based on ads) when they went online, and they are behind the proverbial 8 ball, but the NYT and a few others have caught on. You can only get so much content there free of charge now.
However, without getting too far off topic here, if you're getting your "news" from bloggers, you're getting unadulterated opinion, with no fact-checking, no original research, and no original interviews. Good luck with that. IMO, you're better off just watching Stewart and Colbert. And not for nothing, but you're confusing a trade pub, which is what I was talking about, with mainstream media and major news outlets. It's not the same animal. The big stories and hard news are still handled by people with chops, and they're not making $35K. The local stuff and the fluff go to the interns and cubs.
What your describing can be applied to many businesses and sectors. In this country, quality is not required! Look at how many people do most of their shopping at walmart these days, and look at the country that does most of our manufacturing! American's want the cheapest product possible to get the job done. So what does that leave the American workers? Jobs that aren't high quality, and don't pay high quality. We've voted with our dollars, and businesses are just trying to provide the products we are demanding. They want the cheapest worker to get the job done because WE want low priced goods and services.
And I believe this is why we have such an appalling trade imbalance. Nobody wants the crap that we make, because we fail to recognize or appreciate quality. This is what happens when bean counters take over, and people loose sight of paying a fair price for good quality products and services. Don't be so quick to blame business, we did most of this ourselves.
Well, Thailand is another popular destination for the better off. There are plenty of places to go. And I have to believe that the government is not stupid enough to try any Nazi tactics. As a population, we are the best armed people on Earth. There are more guns in the hands of U.S. citizens than people in this country. We also like our assets in our names.
I speak of no one personally, but the masses as a whole. I do believe as a whole, the American people are easily manipulated and likely stupid. The lack of competition all these years has apparently caused evolution to work in reverse. Now Americans are scrambling trying to figure out what went wrong.
I don't think Americans are as stupid as everyone thinks. Just distracted and not interested...yet. I guarantee you, when the iPhones are shut off, the Lexus is repossessed, and The Real Housewives is no longer accessible because the cable is shut off, then there will be riots. And while we don't have riots yet, we do have flash mobs, people protesting more, people more angry than ever, and people stealing metal right and left. I think its been months now since I visited Drudge and there was NOT a report of a metal theft or a flash mob in some part of the country. If this country continues on its current course, I'm pretty sure there will be riots.
And where, honestly, will the rich go? America is one of the safest places out there for them to live. In third world countries the rich often have to travel around with caravans and guard sentries just to stay safe, because even though the poor have almost always been poor in those countries, they hat the rich and would love to kill them, kidnap them, or rob them or all the above. They can move to the Bahamas all they want; I want to see how they do once poor angry pirates hijack their yacht, because the countries the rich want to move to have next to no military, or the military is corrupt. If a pirate hijacks a yacht in America, they have to deal with the Coast Guard.
Last week I think I read an article on Drudge that talked about how a bunch of poor angry Germans went on a spree where they set luxury cars, and only luxury cars, on fire. And in the story, the cops didn't seem to be too interested in prosecuting the angry poor people. The rich can race to the bottom all they want, but I guarantee you, they won't escape unscathed, they will get theirs for their role in this mess.
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I don't believe that a shortage of jobs should mandate barbaric behavior and exploitation. Going back to my earlier posts, the U.S. is not a Third-World nation. Or, shouldn't be.
