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You feel that way because you ARE trying out for a cheerleading team, though "frat house" might be more inclusive and accurate.
Just one more story:
My most recent job, a nearly-dead machine shop (I just found out today that the programming department manager called it quits and left, so there are still heading downhill fast) hit the wall at the end of January and decided to have layoffs.
They decided to keep a guy who has screwed up every CAM program he's created, who refuses to follow company standards - not just "doesn't know them" but actually says, "that's not the way *I* do things!" when confronted about it, and who can't perform the simplest of tasks correctly. Heck, he couldn't even create a toolsheet that matched the actual tools he used in the CAM program, and a child could do that! The guy is complete joke around the place, but he's also hunting and golf buddies with the CEO and has his head buried so far up management's arse that he can't tell day from night.
Meanwhile, they happily laid me off, despite being the most productive member of the CAM programming department. Oh, but that's right - I was also one of the newest employees and thus wasn't "part of the team" apparently, wasn't a hunting or golf buddy, and kept my political opinions to myself instead of joining in on the weekly half-hour of hate against blacks, gays, muslims, the unemployed, etc. No, I was just a simple fool who went to work and did a good job vs. spending all day BS'ing, comparing epeen sizes, and screwing everything up.
Of course, the company is close to going under anyway, so it may not matter in the long run, but you still get the idea - being a good brown-noser with connections is infinitely more important than actually having any skills. And that applies to getting a job as well. Of course, the sick irony is that if you don't have the skills, you won't get past the resume filters, but then even if you *do* have them, you will still probably be turned down if the boss doesn't feel like you'd be a good drinking buddy or office squeeze (depending upon relative genders.) No wonder this nation is hosed.
Ohh yeah... I'd give the US another 40 years tops before the **** hits the fan and things go way to hell.
Reminds me of an episode from the Dilbert cartoon (licensed from the syndicated comic strip) where Dilbert realizes... "so I'm better off being a famous screw up then a competent nobody?"
Yeah, in my previous projects, there's always at least one person who rubs others the wrong way. I was lucky b/c thus far, all but one were where *I* at least got along with such folks.
However, for one of them, I don't go golfing when that person's around because frankly, I'd rather not anymore. Those who work with him wonder just how he got the job... is he really the program manager's son? Did he save his life? Is he blackmailing him? It would've explained a lot.
Another place, a 26yo twerp has a daddy who's father is a partner of our parent company, so he wasn't getting fired. My coworkers did know how to deal with him, but sucking up to him, but otherwise keeping their distance and NOT sitting next to his cubicle. He'd NEVER shut up about his girlfriend, play Iphone games, use his work computer for non-work stuff, come in in slippers, and then accuse others of doing the same thing. I do miss the work and income, but eh, good riddance and lessons learned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Why?
Because the whole thing is a sham.
... And then you add on the jobs with absurd requirements created so they can claim "we can't find qualified Americans" and then they go out and hire cheaper visa workers.
At one of my last positions, a coworker noted with amusement how one of the requirements for a role required a CISCO certification that was no longer being offered.
We are not talking about people without skills or habitual criminals - we are talking about people with plenty of education, experience, and solid work history. Those people do have a right to work. Too bad there are nowhere near enough jobs to go around, but plenty of people have made fortunes on the labor exploitation that has led to this crisis.
We cannot return to the "family farm" or "move to the frontier west" or follow any of those other paths that used to exist to reduce societal pressures and provide an escape hatch for the disenfranchised in the past. Now, you either work, or you die. That's it. Such is the price paid for living in an industrial society, but there are those who are willing to starve their fellow man so they can horde even more wealth. In the long run, either we find a way to create jobs for the people who, through their actions, have earned them, or things are going to get a lot worse overall - and not just for those out of work.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
2,907 posts, read 2,069,650 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Disagree.
We are not talking about people without skills or habitual criminals - we are talking about people with plenty of education, experience, and solid work history. Those people do have a right to work. Too bad there are nowhere near enough jobs to go around, but plenty of people have made fortunes on the labor exploitation that has led to this crisis.
We cannot return to the "family farm" or "move to the frontier west" or follow any of those other paths that used to exist to reduce societal pressures and provide an escape hatch for the disenfranchised in the past. Now, you either work, or you die. That's it. Such is the price paid for living in an industrial society, but there are those who are willing to starve their fellow man so they can horde even more wealth. In the long run, either we find a way to create jobs for the people who, through their actions, have earned them, or things are going to get a lot worse overall - and not just for those out of work.
Listen, it isn't that you are necessarily wrong, it is that you have unreasonable expectations. Some of the employment issues are structural, and will never be reversed. That is, an entire continent is moving towards middle class (Asia) and in the next twenty years Africa is to follow. USA became dominant post WWII largely due to the fact that we had no global competition. The sooner that we as Americans recognize this fact and adapt, the better off we will be.
Furthermore, who is to say what/how individual has "earned" a job? That seems to be entirely subjective, and this is where the mindset of long-term unemployed needs to change, if they are to have a prayer in securing gainful employment.
Listen, it isn't that you are necessarily wrong, it is that you have unreasonable expectations. Some of the employment issues are structural, and will never be reversed. That is, an entire continent is moving towards middle class (Asia) and in the next twenty years Africa is to follow. USA became dominant post WWII largely due to the fact that we had no global competition. The sooner that we as Americans recognize this fact and adapt, the better off we will be.
Furthermore, who is to say what/how individual has "earned" a job? That seems to be entirely subjective, and this is where the mindset of long-term unemployed needs to change, if they are to have a prayer in securing gainful employment.
Mindsets mean nothing when there are 2.6 to 5.1 people out of work per job opening (optimistic U3 unemployment number vs. the more realistic U6 number.) At that point, skills and mindset no longer matter since even if every unemployed person was perfect (whatever that means) many of them would still be out of work thanks to the lack of jobs.
There is nothing unreasonable about expecting a solid college degree (STEM, etc.) and plenty of real-world experience and good performance to result in a job. If we're not going to do that as a nation anymore and instead just let qualified people die in the streets so overpaid executive toads can buy second yachts and hunting buddies can remain employed for life, this nation is going to fall apart completely.
But people still have the audacity to call us lazy, making excuses, failures, and the whole nine yards. But no response to the employers and how they are acting towards applicants. Not a single place I have applied for a job at followed through with either letting me know, or what they said they were going to do. Not a single one. All the others it was up to me to do the leg work.
Don't sit here and act like nobody wants to work, when it's really the employers holding people back and being jerks. I can't stand listening to the conservative talk shows and some old guy gets on and starts talking about what this or that politician did to the economy and how nobody wants to work, jobs are everywhere, these guys aren't even aware of what it's like to go through so many stages of a hiring process only to see the employer never followed through.
What's happening to this country, when an employer will actually waste an applicants time, and never follow through. Has the business community forgotten that things are supposed to be a two way street? People weren't meant to be slaves you know.
Of course some are not going to respond about this treatment. It will ALWAYS be the applicants fault. Even in the face of proof of these companies doing shady things, the applicant will somehow be blamed. It's sad and downright pathetic, but as you can see some in this thread wants to sweep EMPLOYER'S dirty deeds under the rug and not even bother to discuss them. Avoiding the issues is not going to change a thing nor is turning a blind eye.
This thread is about the hiring process and it being complicated, not about what applicants need to be doing.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
2,907 posts, read 2,069,650 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123
Mindsets mean nothing when there are 2.6 to 5.1 people out of work per job opening (optimistic U3 unemployment number vs. the more realistic U6 number.) At that point, skills and mindset no longer matter since even if every unemployed person was perfect (whatever that means) many of them would still be out of work thanks to the lack of jobs.
There is nothing unreasonable about expecting a solid college degree (STEM, etc.) and plenty of real-world experience and good performance to result in a job. If we're not going to do that as a nation anymore and instead just let qualified people die in the streets so overpaid executive toads can buy second yachts and hunting buddies can remain employed for life, this nation is going to fall apart completely.
Whether or not there are 5.1 or 10.1 candidates for each job is irrelevant, not because it isn't true, but because you CAN'T control that.
I am a brutal rationalist. I look at things as they are, and then try to change those things that I can control and/or influence. A candidate can't change the fact that Obama is incompetent, Congress is bought by special interests or that the corporations are greedy bastards. But, there are a lot of things unemployed people can control/influence that can help them stand out. Focus on those variables.
Whether or not there are 5.1 or 10.1 candidates for each job is irrelevant, not because it isn't true, but because you CAN'T control that.
I am a brutal rationalist. I look at things as they are, and then try to change those things that I can control and/or influence. A candidate can't change the fact that Obama is incompetent, Congress is bought by special interests or that the corporations are greedy bastards. But, there are a lot of things unemployed people can control/influence that can help them stand out. Focus on those variables.
He has focused on the variables that he can control - that's where the frustration stems from. From his posting history, it sounds like he did everything right but still finds himself in a bad situation.
Location: In a city within a state where politicians come to get their PHDs in Corruption
2,907 posts, read 2,069,650 times
Reputation: 4478
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaveyL
He has focused on the variables that he can control - that's where the frustration stems from. From his posting history, it sounds like he did everything right but still finds himself in a bad situation.
I never said that the frustration is not justified, it just that it shows in an interview and is counter productive. If you look at my previous posting history you will see that I don't discriminate against long-term unemployed-I have found some amazingly talented out of work people, but I would be lying that for every great long-term unemployed person I hired there are many more talented people that I turn away because of the "I got screwed" attitude that many of them allow to come out during the selection process.
I never said that the frustration is not justified, it just that it shows in an interview and is counter productive. If you look at my previous posting history you will see that I don't discriminate against long-term unemployed-I have found some amazingly talented out of work people, but I would be lying that for every great long-term unemployed person I hired there are many more talented people that I turn away because of the "I got screwed" attitude that many of them allow to come out during the selection process.
A valid point, though if you met me in person for an interview, you would not be able to tell just how deep my rage goes. I've gotten quite good at hiding those emotions, and I've had plenty of time to polish that skill... my career was destroyed June 16th, 2010, setting me on a slow, painful, and ultimately unstoppable path to eventual poverty and ruin. I plod on through life out of respect for friends and family, not because I'm under any illusion that "next time" things will be better or justice will be served. I know that's not how the world works.
As BigDaveyL said, I did everything right - far more than what was expected - and it has yielded me NOTHING. What more can a world demand than an engineering degree (3rd in my class), 10+ years of experience, a good work ethic, and a spotless criminal record complete with a security clearance? Apparently, that's worth nothing these days, while connected idiots, criminals - and that is people with actual arrest records or who performed illegal actions, not "criminals" in the theoretical sense - and so on get life-time employment thanks to brown-nosing and connections. I'm not perfect, but nobody with a straight face can say that a criminal or a useless employee is more deserving of a job than I am, and yet that is exactly how events have played out over my professional career since graduating. It is sickening and absolutely kills any motivation or desire to do the right thing when one knows for a fact that nobody in business cares. Connections and luck are all that matter.
But, gosh darn it, this is American, so it is "my fault," somehow, and we all need to keep chipper less somebody notice the gross injustices in this nation. Meanwhile, the good jobs keep vanishing, the rich get richer, and we're supposed to jump with joy when more people end up settling for part-time, poverty wage work - if they can even get that - as part of the "Recovery." It's a sick joke, all of it.
Last edited by Rambler123; 04-09-2014 at 10:41 AM..
1.) The "candidate is always at fault" attitude persists from those who are company men/women. These are the butt-kissers, yes men/women who have rarely been in an unemployment position and would never stand up for themselves when blamed for anything by their employer. These are the same people who believe that the employer is always right and it's the employee who is wrong for expecting reasonable treatment. I always ignore them.
2.) The "candidate is always at fault" attitude also comes from those who are currently employed. It usually comes with a healthy dose of "the unemployed are just lazy" attitude.
3.) In this employer market, one must keep their frustrations confined to forums like these. Never express it at an interview. Once must be confident, engaged and positive.
4.) The unemployed must always turn the tables. "Why have you been unemployed for so long"? Possible answer: "I have had several offers that just didn't feel right. I want to make sure that my next opportunity is a good fit and that I am confident that I can meet and exceed expectations. I also don't want to waste valuable resources by accepting a job that isn't a good fit". Always make it seem that you have been in demand and that you hold the cards. If you can make something up about doing consulting work while being unemployed, do it. Play the game. Never come across as desperate or frustrated or accept that it must be your fault for being unemployed when interrogated in an interview. You can do this with professional, non-whiny and confident answers.
5.) Employers who are rude and inconsiderate during the interview process have already shown you what you can expect once hired. Employers are like people, some have good character while others don't. While you may need the job and accept it, you'll have a good insight on what to expect. Don't be naive.
6.) Life isn't fair, never has been and never will be. Adjust as best as possible, be flexible and if you need to stretch the truth, do it. Employers don't play by the same rules, employees and the unemployed shouldn't either.
7.) Finding a job is much about who you know. Use your network, use any "in" as you can.
8.) Finding a job is much like sales, it's a numbers game. You need to keep your pipeline filled at all times and continue to prospect for new opportunities up until you actually start a new job. It will take an "x" number of applications to produce an "X" number of interviews which will produce an "X" number of offers. Measure your efforts and experiment with different resume formats, interview answers, etc. If you find that one method works better than another, do more of it. Do not ever fall into the trap of thinking you have a "sure thing". Employers can change their mind at any time. Only written offers count for anything. Even then, written offers can be rescinded. Verbal promises are worthless.
9.) Do yourself a favor, by the book "Knock 'em Dead". Lots of great insight on how to get a job.
10.) Many times, you will be asked what your salary expectations are right off the bat. I actually find that to be a good thing. This way, you're not wasting time on a job that won't pay. I always try to do research on all jobs that I am applying for in my area and pick a salary range. The low end would be what the minimum you would except and is currently paid for that job with the high end being the highest amount paid for that same job. Know these ranges. When employers ask these types of questions, I'm actually encouraged. They are pre-qualifying you.
I am in sticky situation myself as I can't find a good job. Being that I am single with no house (or lease) and have no children, I will exploit that any way possible. If I need to move for a good job, I will. I will use my mobility and flexibility to my advantage.
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