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How similar are we Jews in modern times to those fateful Jews in times past? Jewish history has painted clear roadmaps to tell us when it's time to do T'shuvah, and in nearly each case, we have failed to do so and have paid dearly with our lives. We are clearly not doing the T'shuvah required of us right now as well,.
I would not presume to know for each and every Jew what the right tshuva for them to do is. Clearly there were people in the time of the second temple who thought they DID know - and yet we are told the second temple was destroyed, not for violations of the laws of purity, or for the errors of the sadduccees, but for sinat hinam.
In this season of tshuvah, let us try to do our own personal tshuvah for what we beleive we did wrong - but let us be wary of beleiving we know what tshuva everyone needs to make - lets leave that to Hashem (and if that weakens our intensity when doing kiruv, I think its still better)
I know the secular response is to draft more solidiers and build more bombers. And furthermore, to scoff at any Yid who suggests that davening to HaKadosh BaruchHu will have any positive effect.
such scoffing does not logically require atheism, or even deism. Someone may simply be reluctant to believe that hashem makes each and every historical turn contingent on Am Israel's tfillah. Certainly that kind of faith is often challenged by the events of this world, and is not consistent with the Jewish tradition of selfhelp (we pray for refuah shelamah, but unlike some christians, we insist on the best medical care)
I will always pray for peace, and for the well being of Am Israel. But I will neither ignore the security equivalent of the physician, nor will I judge Hashem on whether he gave me a good return for my prayers - thats not my belief in how the world works, nor what tfillah is about, nor what tshuvah is about.
OK, now that we're really cooking here (and taking our forum back, for the benefit of the Jews), let's step it up a notch. I know some here have said they are not waiting for moschiach to come, but is it fair to say that perhaps you don't really know much about moschiach?
In my case, no, that would not be a fair assessment. In my opinion, belief in the messiah stems from the same crises of theology that brought us the nonsense about heaven and hell. The best one might say about it is that its a faulty inference.
In my case, no, that would not be a fair assessment. In my opinion, belief in the messiah stems from the same crises of theology that brought us the nonsense about heaven and hell. The best one might say about it is that its a faulty inference.
The best, or the worst? (and glad you're back, Jayhawker Soule). You do know belief in mochiach is normative Jewish thought, right? You're going out on a pretty far out limb to say it's an "inference."
It would be interesting to poll Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Jews in the US to get a sense on how they view the messiah. I suspect that the predominant attitude would be something like: "I guess so, but I don't really think about it much." Still, I think classifying it as 'normative' is reasonable.
The biggest problem with this limb I'm on is that it's getting crowded. There was a time that the normative view included a belief in a six-day creation, a global flood, and an exodus of some 600,000 able-bodied men plus their families - not to mention a not very bright prophet spending three days in the body of a big fish. In my opinion, sometimes the sages got it wrong.
Early normative Judaism held a very corporate and very simplistic cause-and-effect view of history. If the people did what was right in the eyes of HaShem, the people would prosper. If not, the people would suffer. Second Kings is in part a tiresome litany of this evaluation. But this explanation for social upheaval and disaster quickly takes on the quality of blaming the victim. There has to be a better way to find justice in a world where horrible things too often happen to underserving people.
The answer was two-fold: the coming of the messiah and justice in the afterlife - both being post-Torah constructs.
It would be interesting to poll Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Jews in the US to get a sense on how they view the messiah. I suspect that the predominant attitude would be something like: "I guess so, but I don't really think about it much." Still, I think classifying it as 'normative' is reasonable.
The biggest problem with this limb I'm on is that it's getting crowded. There was a time that the normative view included a belief in a six-day creation, a global flood, and an exodus of some 600,000 able-bodied men plus their families - not to mention a not very bright prophet spending three days in the body of a big fish. In my opinion, sometimes the sages got it wrong.
Early normative Judaism held a very corporate and very simplistic cause-and-effect view of history. If the people did what was right in the eyes of HaShem, the people would prosper. If not, the people would suffer. Second Kings is in part a tiresome litany of this evaluation. But this explanation for social upheaval and disaster quickly takes on the quality of blaming the victim. There has to be a better way to find justice in a world where horrible things too often happen to underserving people.
The answer was two-fold: the coming of the messiah and justice in the afterlife - both being post-Torah constructs.
I'm not a fan ...
I can see where you're coming from. I was born into a household that felt exactly as you and so many others do. I only "digressed" as an adult and began to think and research more about moschiach.
But I've read your views on the Talmud, so maybe I should say nowhere?
I have enormous respect for Talmud. But I am also aware of two interrelated truths: (a) it is an interplay of often conflicting opinions and recollections, and (b) it is a human effort by people with limited knowledge. These people were making inferences based on the presumption that the pshat is, among other things, literally true.
Given the wide-ranging dialogue and debate that is Talmud, it is extremely difficult for me to believe that its authors ever intended that body of work to be viewed as (infallible) holy writ.
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