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no, not the Nazarene, and not Rabbi Shneerson either.
I have recently read, in an academic history, that there significant numbers of Jews, including some rabbis, who, in the early 1700s, a few decades after the death of Sabbatai Zvi (a false messiah who converted to Islam before his death) believed that Sabbatai was only "concealed" and would return, bringing the full messianic era.
The parallels to christianity, to certain varieties of Shia Islam, and to modern controversies about the late Chabad rebbe, are striking.
The followers of these people are so convinced that their leader is the messiah that they refuse to accept their death. They're left with trying to rationalize the death and still hold on to the hope they haven't been mistaken.
Mesechta Derek Eretz Zutra states that there were nine people in our history (not all Jewish, btw) who entered Gan Eden without first dying:
'' Nine entered the Garden of Eden when they were still alive, and they are: Enoch (Chanoch) the son of Jared, Elijah, Messiah, Eliezer the bondsman of Abraham, Hirom the king of Zor, Ebed-melech the Cushi and Jabetz the son of R. Jehudah the Prince, Bothiah the daughter of Pharaoh and Serech the daughter of Ascher, and, according to others, also R. Jehoshua b. Levi. ''
Notice the third one in the list, which I highlighted in red.
Mesechta Derek Eretz Zutra states that there were nine people in our history (not all Jewish, btw) who entered Gan Eden without first dying:
'' Nine entered the Garden of Eden when they were still alive, and they are: Enoch (Chanoch) the son of Jared, Elijah, Messiah, Eliezer the bondsman of Abraham, Hirom the king of Zor, Ebed-melech the Cushi and Jabetz the son of R. Jehudah the Prince, Bothiah the daughter of Pharaoh and Serech the daughter of Ascher, and, according to others, also R. Jehoshua b. Levi. ''
Notice the third one in the list, which I highlighted in red.
My understanding is that that refers to the nature of Moshiach, who lives eternally somewhere - as in the famous story of him outside the gates of Rome.
Sabatai, like the Nazarene, and like the late Rebbe (and unlike the 12th imam?) was actually seen to physically die.
The followers of these people are so convinced that their leader is the messiah that they refuse to accept their death. They're left with trying to rationalize the death and still hold on to the hope they haven't been mistaken.
There were also sabbatains who believed that that Sabbatai was part of the divinity - and who were opposed by more "moderate" sabbatains who said he was only the moshiach. There seem to also have been some who accepted that the moshiach would be someone else who would not be Sabbatai reborn, but nonetheless beleived that Sabbatais actions were licit, and that he had helped to advance the messianic era.
Again the parallels to the disputes within Chabad are suggestive.
no, not the Nazarene, and not Rabbi Shneerson either.
I have recently read, in an academic history, that there significant numbers of Jews, including some rabbis, who, in the early 1700s, a few decades after the death of Sabbatai Zvi (a false messiah who converted to Islam before his death) believed that Sabbatai was only "concealed" and would return, bringing the full messianic era.
The parallels to christianity, to certain varieties of Shia Islam, and to modern controversies about the late Chabad rebbe, are striking.
The parallels are very similar to the Twelver Sect of Shi'ism and also similar to the Ahmaddiyya.
It is debatable as to if the Ahmaddiyya are a division of Islam or a separate religion. Although their teachings are nearly identical to Sunni, because they do not accept Muhammad as being the final Prophet, many Muslims believe that is sufficient to say they are not Muslim.
The parallels are very similar to the Twelver Sect of Shi'ism and also similar to the Ahmaddiyya.
It is debatable as to if the Ahmaddiyya are a division of Islam or a separate religion. Although their teachings are nearly identical to Sunni, because they do not accept Muhammad as being the final Prophet, many Muslims believe that is sufficient to say they are not Muslim.
The more I read about the more extreme forms of Sabbatianism (and Im referring to those who remained within the Jewish community, not those who nominally converted to Islam (the donmeh) or to Christianiy (the Frankists?) , the more they look like something other than Judaism (and I am one who considers Karaism, classical Reform Judaism, and Chabad to all be forms of Judaism)
(note BTW - when Sabbatai converted it was to Sunni Islam - he did so under pressure from the Ottoman Sultan, whose relations with Shia Islam were rather poor, IIUC)
The more I read about the more extreme forms of Sabbatianism (and Im referring to those who remained within the Jewish community, not those who nominally converted to Islam (the donmeh) or to Christianiy (the Frankists?) , the more they look like something other than Judaism (and I am one who considers Karaism, classical Reform Judaism, and Chabad to all be forms of Judaism)
(note BTW - when Sabbatai converted it was to Sunni Islam - he did so under pressure from the Ottoman Sultan, whose relations with Shia Islam were rather poor, IIUC)
I suspect that because of the close relationship and similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam there will always be those who fail to see they are separate faiths. The problems occur when they think they have hit upon a way to have a generic faith that encompasses all three. Another possibility is perhaps in some deranged manner some people felt they fulfilled the role of Moshiach (Messiah) (Mas'ah) (Mehdi) and were the rightful "savior" of all of us.
The fact is we are three separate faiths and while the difference may be few they are strong differences that make us very different religions. We just need to learn to live peacefully side by side and stop thinking we need to be combined into one religion. Our creator has been running things for a long time and us humans are not going to improve on what is.
I suspect that because of the close relationship and similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam there will always be those who fail to see they are separate faiths. The problems occur when they think they have hit upon a way to have a generic faith that encompasses all three. Another possibility is perhaps in some deranged manner some people felt they fulfilled the role of Moshiach (Messiah) (Mas'ah) (Mehdi) and were the rightful "savior" of all of us.
The fact is we are three separate faiths and while the difference may be few they are strong differences that make us very different religions. We just need to learn to live peacefully side by side and stop thinking we need to be combined into one religion. Our creator has been running things for a long time and us humans are not going to improve on what is.
I meant that extreme sabbatianism is a seperate faith altogether. Period. Not that its a form of christianity or Islam (There are aspects of it that seem to be closer gnosticism - though Im not sure how much thats true of all kabbalah, and how much sabbatainism took it further - or just gave it odd twists) I mentioned the donmeh and Frankists in case someone thought my reference to it being a seperate faith was a referernce to those subgroups.
(note the Donmeh were NOT attempting to syncretize Judaism and Islam, IIUC - they converted to Islam to follow Sabbatai, and in the belief that his conversion was not sincere, but was an attempt to "release the hidden sparks of holiness within the gentile faith" - they were in a sense voluntary Marranos - they lived publicly as Muslims, but privately as Jews - despite NOT having been forced to convert. A very odd group indeed)
I meant that extreme sabbatianism is a seperate faith altogether. Period. Not that its a form of christianity or Islam (There are aspects of it that seem to be closer gnosticism - though Im not sure how much thats true of all kabbalah, and how much sabbatainism took it further - or just gave it odd twists) I mentioned the donmeh and Frankists in case someone thought my reference to it being a seperate faith was a referernce to those subgroups.
(note the Donmeh were NOT attempting to syncretize Judaism and Islam, IIUC - they converted to Islam to follow Sabbatai, and in the belief that his conversion was not sincere, but was an attempt to "release the hidden sparks of holiness within the gentile faith" - they were in a sense voluntary Marranos - they lived publicly as Muslims, but privately as Jews - despite NOT having been forced to convert. A very odd group indeed)
I see.
I agree "A very odd group"
This may be a bit deeper than I am capable of fully understanding.
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