My wife is converting and we have questions (believe)
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We can agree to disagree here. I am of the camp that believes that the term "Torah" has be over-applied to create a set of social (not religious) norms where if broken, put you at odds with some Orthodox Jews. This "some" is growing as a process of Orthodox Judaism's "move towards the right".
It goes beyond the scope of the topic of this thread, but I will say this. "Mainstream" Orthodox Judaism varies greatly from place to place. Which is why I believe that it does not exist. This is not 'watering down' the Torah. It is social constructs which influence how Orthodox Judaism is observed. What is accepted as the "norm" for the Orthodox Jewish community in Lakewood, NJ is seen as over-the-top in the Orthodox Jewish community in Denver, CO. In just one simple example, my neighbor frum-from-birth neighbor from Western Pennsylvania (not Pittsburgh, but close) was speechless when her neighbors in Flatbush admonished her for not using a light box to check her lettuce leaves for salad.
I'm sure you've heard the term "out of town" Orthodox Jews. It's a ridiculous and confusing concept...but it is proof that Orthodox Judaism/halacha does in fact vary depending on where you live.
Excellent post and I agree with your views. However, open orthodoxy is not orthodoxy. It's something unrecognizable to a frum Yid.
FYI for those of us Jews interested in learning more about Open Orthodoxy, a movement that is both faithful to the Torah and open-minded, there's a blog presenting articles written by prominent Open Orthodox leaders:
I had an Orthodox conversion. Understand that my advice comes from personally knowing at least 30 converts who live in various parts of the US and Israel. Even so, my knowledge and experiences are anecdotal and far from being comprehensive or authoritative.
My Orthodox conversion took 5 years. However my case is not usual. Several things occurred to slow its progress, including moving to another state. I also admit that I went through the process as a single person...so I have no first hand experience of what the conversion process is like with a Jewish partner in tow. I will say that from what I've seen, one of two things occur (and this is in regards to Orthodox conversion): #1 - The Jewish spouse supports and assists the non-Jewish convert-to-be through the process. The rabbi/community sees this as a sign of stability, and the conversion moves along...usually within a year or so or #2 - the non-Jewish partner sees the demands of an Orthodox Jewish conversion to be way too much and they either convert via a non-Orthodox strain or not at all. The relationship between the two partners either ends (when the Jewish partner feels that marrying a non-Jew is too at odds with their values) or continues at the disapproval of the Jewish partner's family and/or the Jewish community at large.
I am not going to lie and say that people do not pursue Orthodox Jewish conversions for marriage. Yes, it is true that it is not a valid reason to want to convert, but it happens anyway. Why? Because the non-Jewish person has a real drive to want to join the people of Israel and the covenant that they have with G-d. It gets to the point that they are converting for what we say "the sake of heaven" and not for the Jewish partner. For if the Jewish partner were to take off the next day, they would still want to be a Jew. For example, an atheist will not have it in them (and will probably not be accepted anyway) to abide by all of the rules and requirements necessary to live as an Orthodox Jew....while being with a Jewish mate or not. On the other hand, a spiritually inclined person may be taken as sincere, and make it work. It really depends on a case-by-case basis.
From a social perspective, the chips are stacked against you. You were not specific as to the reasons why, but if your family is not supportive of your girlfriend's conversion efforts, this will be very discouraging to her and to you. Your girlfriend will need a mentor to help navigate how to "live Jewishly". The ideal would be for your family to serve as this mentor (unless it is you). Where else where you get the experience of a warm, productive Jewish home? Is it to the point where she currently feels comfortable at family gatherings? What will the holidays be like? What will Shabbat be like? We can the two of you go to experience that? Yes, you can create you own experiences and/or seek them from other sources....such as friends, fellow Jewish community members, etc. But ideally, it should be "home grown"...if you know what I mean. Jewish families place a lot of importance on mesorah...heritage. They want that passed down through the generations...on some level. Your family probably needs some more confidence in your girlfriend that she will be able to contribute to that in some way.
If you/she remain serious about pursuing an Orthodox conversion, then you have to take a comprehensive inventory of your lifestyle. #1 - Do the two of you reside in a Jewish community with an Orthodox Jewish presence? And for conversion purposes, Chabad doesn't count (most Chabad rabbis do not involve themselves in conversions....they'll send you to Crown Heights, NY). If not, then she at least will need to move to one. #2 - Do you have a relationship with an Orthodox rabbi who is willing to help you? This is a major one. Not every Orthodox rabbi teaches or sponsors converts. In fact the pool is pretty small now that the Israeli Rabinate is making declarations about which Orthodox conversions are "kosher" by their standards, and which ones are not. #3 - Can the two of you live a Jewish lifestyle that the conversion Rabbi/Beit Din demands? It varies a LOT from rabbi to rabbi....beit din to beit din. And finally #4 - Do you have the time, money and resources to dedicate to this? Orthodox conversion rarely conform to a set time frame. Many set up milestones that will take one person a month to complete...and the next a year to complete (i.e. learning to read from the siddur in Hebrew for example). They can require that you purchase all new cookware or they may allow you to try to kasher what you have. They may require attendance at the synagogue for all Shabbat and holiday services. Do you have the job and/or time in at your job to request these days off? They may have you study with tutors to become knowledgeable in the laws and norms of Judaism. Do you have the study time available as well as the money to pay these tutors?
I do not mean to sound discouraging, but hopefully you can see that all of this is a LOT to ask of someone just so that they can marry you. Your girlfriend can marry any non-Jewish guy out there, just they way he is, with a lot less hassle. Of course, she can pursue a non-Orthodox conversion (which are much, MUCH easier...but still a bit involved), but as I think you already know, their acceptability varies greatly in the Jewish community.
I wish you and your girlfriend all the luck and love that each of you deserve. If you have any questions that you would rather not ask her about the process, feel free to PM me.
Good grief...This all sounds like trying to join a secret society...What about doing it just getting close to HaShem?...Knowing Truth?...
Good grief...This all sounds like trying to join a secret society...What about doing it just getting close to HaShem?...Knowing Truth?...
This is a very accurate analogy; and I did join a sorority in college. It wasn't even a fraction as difficult and there was always a light at the end of a (short) tunnel (you're only a pledge for a semester).
To be fair, I did seriously consider becoming a Noahide. However, issues arise when you start looking towards the future....especially when you are young and single. There are no established communities or institutions for Noahides. There are a few Orthodox rabbis who teach and consul Noahides...but there work is sporadic. What do you do about dating, marriage, the education of your children? True, even as a Jewish convert, these are still problem areas for me (dating has been a MAJOR fail...so I've given up on it). However 10 years ago, I wanted to at least give it a chance. None of us know how exactly what the future brings. We just need to build the proper foundation, and hope and pray that something good results.
MissShona, you sound like a very wise person, and I applaud you for the tremendous effort you made to become a Yid. Maybe don't give up on dating. Hashem in His great mercy is holding out your beshert until exactly the right time.
MissShona, you sound like a very wise person, and I applaud you for the tremendous effort you made to become a Yid. Maybe don't give up on dating. Hashem in His great mercy is holding out your beshert until exactly the right time.
Awww thank you so very much! Unfortunately, I also happen to be Black, so that alone stops many Jews from even talking to me to ever discover what type of person that I am (interestingly, frum Jews who are senior citizens get along very well with me...I think because they can relate to what it's like to be discriminated against more so than younger Jews).
I've kinda accepted that the "right time" is behind me, being that I'm already in my mid-30s. But trust me, I don't want to be in a relationship where I'm made to feel uncomfortable because I was born a non-Jew and/or because of my race. I don't want to be miserable during the limited time that I have on this planet.
Awww thank you so very much! Unfortunately, I also happen to be Black, so that alone stops many Jews from even talking to me to ever discover what type of person that I am (interestingly, frum Jews who are senior citizens get along very well with me...I think because they can relate to what it's like to be discriminated against more so than younger Jews).
I've kinda accepted that the "right time" is behind me, being that I'm already in my mid-30s. But trust me, I don't want to be in a relationship where I'm made to feel uncomfortable because I was born a non-Jew and/or because of my race. I don't want to be miserable during the limited time that I have on this planet.
I hope that you have a good New Year!
There are Jews that are Black. I recall going to a congregation to hear some music years back and this Black man came down from New York and put on a wonderful concert. He was born Jewish and both of his parents were Jewish too and Black. He had the soul of a Black man and the songs of Hebrew like a Jewish man. I talked to him and told him how wonderful of a performance he put on and got his CD.
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