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This is what should happen to the Landing. This is a proposed DC walmart. There are several walmarts going up in DC, most of them much more urban than this, but this is probably as dense as a project could get at that location....
That really would be great for The Landing, but I'd like to think something better could go there. The problem with Walmart is that I don't think it would be the most effective place for bridging the Troost divide. Something like a Target and Trader Joe's, on the other hand, would be ideal, and maybe a Walmart at 63rd and Prospect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
Didn't Waldo pretty vociferously oppose getting a Walmart Neighborhood Market not too awfulky far from The Landing?
The Landing and Waldo are pretty far apart and quite different areas.
But did the same thing happen to the Hen House proposal in Waldo? If so, I'd think Waldo residents are just stupidly anti-development, not progressive or anything.
Wow, so many great responses. Thanks everyone! So basically, what most of you are saying is that putting too much section 8 into certain areas caused the problem? That makes sense, unfortunately. Those that are really struggling are much more likely to resort to crime out of desperation.
It just makes me sad to look on Google maps at how ugly and empty (certain areas) of the city where I was born have become. I was born in Kansas City Kansas just west of Indian Springs mall. I remember that we would often visit people in the city for years even as it declined, even though our family had left KCK when I was pretty young. Now it seems like the only reason to go to KCK would be to get Gates BBQ, which is exciting, but also really depressing. Most people in my family won't even go driving in that city anymore, as they are so scared of something happening.
Anyway, I live in Los Angeles now, but there's many things I miss about the KC area.
Well, western KCK has become a huge destination. Are you familiar with Kansas Speedway, Sporting KC (professional soccer) stadium, T-Bones (minor-league baseball) stadium, the Legends shopping center, Nebraska Furniture Mart, Cabela's, the Schlitterbahn waterpark, Hollywood Casino, and all of the development along 435?
The Indian Springs site has recently been turned over to Lane4, a development firm, to see what can be developed there.
There have also been some other developments deeper into KCK, some of which are mentioned in the above article. I think the city has hit bottom and will only rebound from this point.
Wyandotte Plaza, at 78th and State, is undergoing a major renovation and is bringing a higher caliber of retail back into the area that didn't seem likely to ever return. In addition to what's mentioned in the article, Krispy Kreme is also opening a stand-alone store there:
The Landing and Waldo are pretty far apart and quite different areas.
They're about 2.5 miles apart (for that specific part of Waldo...where the Neighborhood Market was proposed, anyway, some areas area closer), and, as I recall from being a resident back in '09, not horrifically different. But, eh, tomato, tomahto.
They're about 2.5 miles apart (for that specific part of Waldo...where the Neighborhood Market was proposed, anyway, some areas area closer), and, as I recall from being a resident back in '09, not horrifically different. But, eh, tomato, tomahto.
That distance seems short and it's weird to think about, but obviously that amount of distance in an urban area can be quite drastic. Crown Center to 27th and Prospect is only 1.8 miles, for example, and those are obviously very different areas. That Troost divide is a big factor, where a mere block's distance means a $100,000 difference in home values and one side being 90% white, with the other being 90% black. I think Waldo and 63rd and Troost are objectively different. Even on the surface to the casual observer they are different.
Edit: I see what you were saying. I think we're both right. Both areas are both similar and different.
Personally, I can offer testimony of not feeling easy on kc streets after dark. wornall is fine, bks is fine, Westport watch out for muggers n vagrants near sunfresh, fine, warwick main, fine excepting a few high traffic spots. now troost, I live on troost, 79th, I can say some spots are workable at times. There is a whole city, behind troost, I was driving on 42nd street across the creek, brush creek, from the sunfresh blue parkway... it took an amount of driving to reach 42nd and troost avenue. I do agree, a vast, usable smartly thought out and timeless looking area, an entire city is abandoned. Why? Bigots at first, but the unstable unsustainable violent culture change, and continues unabated. Im a city man, I got intimate knowledge of inner city, both sides, I couldn't do an east central address, I.e. 27th to 85th, unless I had 50 people I knew with me moving in block by block, that's how latinos did on the eastside, poplar, brighton, most of those blocks latinos bought those homes for $ 3000 dollars, that's how low the price was,,,why, no one wanted the eastside, crime, decay, crazy neighbors weighs on you after time.
You're not getting it and I can't explain any better. There was a day before things were like they are now. I'm barely able to see that, because I'm barely old enough to have seen any of the change. I have to wonder if maybe you're younger than me. Like I said, I'm 28.
The area around Indian Springs collapsed. It's at an all-time low. But it wasn't an odd place for a mall at all. It's on the western edge of a highly-populated area. There was no room for it further east. It was a successful mall. And it didn't have all lower-end stores. I mentioned the community-oriented places because I was making a point about how malls used to be a sort of community center the way downtowns were and how malls sort of replaced them. Indian Springs was anchored by Dillard's (was Macy's before Dillard's bought them out in KC), JCPenney, and Montgomery Ward, and had all of the normal mall stores in addition to the things I already mentioned.
I don't really consider Denver a peer of KCMO in that regard because composition of the population is drastically different, isn't it? If Denver had the black population that KCMO does and the distraught leftover industrial population, it would have a murder rate the same as KCMO. By the way, isn't there a suburb of Denver that is partly similar to KCK, meaning diverse and with significant crime? I can't remember which Denver suburb is, but I'm curious about how its murder rate compares to KCK.
I might agree that when the mall was built decades ago that the location might not have been too much worse than other malls. The problem I see is that even if that particular area of Kansas City would have taken off, it is too secluded and cut off from everything else. The only thing it has going is the interstate, but that particular interstate location is not the one I would have picked. It doesn't scream of the kind of location that can withstand possible market changes. Like the one on 95th street, which has seen a slight demographic change, but still stays very busy. The Great Disaster on 151st is another example of a miscalculation. If you could hit your numbers by selling to teenage kids from southeast Olathe it might work, but that isn't going to support a mall. Especially one of that size. If I would have been in the boardroom when that mall was pitched, I wouldn't have been able to run out fast enough. Really, who thought that would be a good idea for the new Johnson County... NO! People had to have been looking for work after that decision.
Denver is a peer market to Kansas City and was much more equal peer not more than 20 years ago. Heck, it was still relatively close 10 years ago. 20-30 years ago there was similar political and social attitudes in both cities as well. I agree that the race Demographics are different, but Denver also has a 30% minority population. Yes, gentrification has pushed some of Denver's minority population farther east into Aurora, but you can add the murder totals for the entire Front Range to Denver and it won't touch Kansas City's rate. There are maybe 4-5 10 square block areas in eastern Denver and Aurora I wouldn't feel safe walking around past dark. That is no excuse for Kansas City not getting everyone on the same page. I'm more likely to let someone use the Civil War/Border War as an excuse for no growth than I am a any particular minority population.
I'm sad there isn't sever gentrification going on south of downtown Kansas City. The kind that would push all those abandoned warehouses and parking lots out to Franklin and Miami county. I believe I-70 in Kansas City warrants a cut and cover more than I-70 in Denver. The interstates cutting the urban core off in Kansas City is probably the biggest downfall, but it can be managed if someone with any since of urban growth could get involved in the planning. I certainly hope that person is needed some day.
^I can't agree that a mall built at the geographic center of a city of 168,000 with its economy at its peak was a bad location to build a mall. Indian Springs was very successful and was around as long as most and longer than some. The reasons for its demise were crime and resulting white/middle-class flight combined with the collapse of the industrial economy. Kansas City, KS was particularly susceptible to the latter. But judging by the housing stock and using it to form an educated guess of the demographics surrounding the broad areas around those other malls in the area that collapsed, they were affected by it too. In fact, I suspect it's a factor in the downfall and demise of many malls and older suburban areas that's very underestimated. There are some malls that collapsed that wasn't obviously because of crime. I think the crime factor in some areas covers up the reality of the economic factor. What I'm suggesting is hard to prove, but it should be obvious if one thinks about it. I mean, if you have a town of 50,000 people and a successful mall and there are just a few major factories that support the economy - if they go away, it's obvious what happened. On the other hand, when you're dealing with a much larger city and a major metropolitan area and many smaller employers, it's more complicated. At any rate, I think Indian Springs collapsed for the same reasons Bannister and Blue Ridge did, which were/are in demographically-similar locations. The only factor of its location involved is that it was on the edge of the inner city, on the bus lines, and otherwise easily accessible from the hood, and where low-income housing was expanded.
And that's what I suspect about Aurora, but the total murder rate is still tied to the other factors I mentioned.
I can agree with you about capping 670 in KC, which I think is what you mean. A linear park similar to the "mall" in downtown St. Louis would be perfect. Throw up a few high-rise apartments or condos opposite of those Cordish plans and you've got a real boulevard effect, Truman BLVD.
^Oh, and I'd like to add that comparing Indian Springs to The Great Mall on 151st is like comparing apples to oranges. The Great Mall wasn't a success from the start and wasn't and isn't even really a traditional mall. While it may have been a "miscalculation", Indian Springs wasn't in the same way and not at all, at least not anymore than any other mall that collapsed was, which was most of them it seems.
Well, western KCK has become a huge destination. Are you familiar with Kansas Speedway, Sporting KC (professional soccer) stadium, T-Bones (minor-league baseball) stadium, the Legends shopping center, Nebraska Furniture Mart, Cabela's, the Schlitterbahn waterpark, Hollywood Casino, and all of the development along 435?
The Indian Springs site has recently been turned over to Lane4, a development firm, to see what can be developed there.
There have also been some other developments deeper into KCK, some of which are mentioned in the above article. I think the city has hit bottom and will only rebound from this point.
Wyandotte Plaza, at 78th and State, is undergoing a major renovation and is bringing a higher caliber of retail back into the area that didn't seem likely to ever return. In addition to what's mentioned in the article, Krispy Kreme is also opening a stand-alone store there:
Oh yes, I'm familiar with that area. I went to a T-bones game a few years ago and I was almost hit by a line drive home run! Was scary but funny at the same time. I'm also familiar with the waterpark as well as the job growth in that area. Also, speaking of old Indian Springs, does anyone remember the Orange Julius? It just seemed like that Indian Springs mall was way more unique than Overland Park (when IS was nice).
I just hope that eventually they can spread that improvement east, into the KCK that as you state, has already hit rock bottom. I hope you're right in that it can only go up, but I know that place is a huge mess. I know of someone who had 3 different people try to rob him when he was walking in KCK in the same day. That's scary!
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