Midwest? South? (Lexington, Louisville, Owensboro: school, living in, law)
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OK. I'm speaking as someone who has lived in the extremes of both the Midwest and the South. I was born and grew up in Northern Illinois. I moved to KY when I was 8 and lived there until I was 18. I went to college in Birmingham, AL and, upon graduation, moved to Nashville (where I now reside).
Kentucky is a split state. Its culture starts southern at the bottom, but as you move upwards, the climate, stores, restaurants, accents and attitudes all begin to turn Midwestern. Just from my personal observations, I feel that, as a whole, the state is shifting more towards a Midwestern feel (save the Eastern parts, which will probably never change). I was in Louisville for Derby this year and saw a few promotional flyers and such that touted Louisville for its "Southern Hospitality." This really made me laugh. "Who are they kidding?" I thought. It seemed to me that someone was trying to promote Louisville's image from 100 years ago. When I think Southern, I think of the real South (specifically Birmingham due to my personal experience) and trust me...Louisville is NOTHING like Birmingham. It's not even like Nashville for that matter. It really isn’t 100% one way or the other and why would anyone want it to be? I, for one, think a multicultural state is very cool.
Now honestly, I do see why you’d think it has a Midwestern under-culture, but it is a major city. The same argument, I assure you, can be made of New Orleans, Atlanta, Charleston. Major cities have major immigration, and people from all over the country--and the world--make their homes there. Sad as it is, it has shown its effects on the cities, but I assure you, at Louisville’s core, is the South. It has even been said that during the darkest days of the war, Louisville had more “Johnny Rebs” and “Southern Belles” than the entire state of Mississippi. As an historian, I might be inclined to believe that. Having mentioned Southern Belles, you’d be well advised to note Sallie Ward was a Louisvillian. Her portrait is often named “The Southern Belle.” That is because she was THE Southern Belle in the ante-bellum days. More Scarlett O’Hara than Scarlett herself! Literally, she was considered THE belle of the South! None of that is even mentioning that, as someone else noted, Louisville is a river city, giving it all the more reason to intermingle cultures. Nonetheless, to the trained ear, one can hear the traces of Southern accents in downtown Louisville, and thick as molasses accents among some of the older residence. Step outside the city limits--you can no longer judge the South by its cities. Anyone who lives in a Southern city will note the changes over the years. They’ve become melting pots, good or bad! Oh, and what is Louisville’s nickname? You don’t know? Let me tell you, “Gateway to the South!” That’s a take on its old days as a river port, and its being a Southern city, noted for two great Southern pastimes, horseracing and bourbon!
From a cultural geography perspective the usual northmost line of Southern cultural influences in the lower Midwest is US 40, so it might be more accurate to consider southern Indiana and Illinois more southern than it would to consider Kentucky Midwestern. The Southern Focus study referenced earlier seems to confim the Southern character of Kentucky. About the only part of the state that could be considered Midwestern are the three northern counties across the river from Cincinnati.
Louisville is probably a bit more unusual in that it has aspects that are not traditionally associated with the South. In terms of historical aspects the city was settled by Virginians, and then recieved a large immigration from Germany and Ireland. Unlike other Midwestern cities it did not experience input from the second immigration from southern and eastern Europe to any signifigant degree, and lacks any historical "ethnic neighborhoods" that characterize true Midwestern cities like Dayton or Fort Wayne or South Bend. Louisville has experienced in-migration from the rural areas of central and western Kentucky (the areas directly south and west of the city), which has reinforced its southern character in modern times, which reinforced the southern character of the local working-class.
Louisville was and is industrial, but that is not necessarily a marker of being a Midwestern anomaly in a southern region, as numerous southern cities have an industrial base, such as the textile cities of the Carolina Piedmont. Louisvilles industial development was part of the New South, and marketed to the South, and its leading newspaper editor of the postbellum era, Henry Watterson, was considered an expontent of the New South ideology. During the postbellum era the L&N Railroad, headquarted in Lousiville, was a major carrier into the deep South, terminating at Pensacola and New Orleans, and painted its locomotives "confederate gray".
Another aspect of Louisville that gives it a historical and modern Southern character is the experience of slavery. Louisville did have a large slave population (one of the largest), and slaves were used in industry (44 worked for one company), building trades, steamboat trade, and as household servants. During the Jim Crow era Louisville did segrate blacks and whites into seperate school systems, and event tried to enact ordnances restricting blacks to certain neighborghoods (found unconstitutional by the USSC). One did not see this type of legal Jim Crow elsewhere in the Midwest. Some of the residential patterns of black settlement also paralled other urban south centers. In Midwestern cities blacks settled in older inner city neighborhoods, but in Louisville there was a tendancy for blacks to settle on the urban periphery, originally in Smoketown, but later in neighborhoods like Little Africa (later Park Duvalle) and in the Wet Woods (the Newburgh Road area). This pattern is similar to that identified by Harold Rabinowitz in his "Race Relations in the Urban South", where freed slaves formed settlements on the edges of Southern cities (which is quite visible in Lexington, too).
The aspect of religion as a indicator of southern cultural character is also key as Louisville is a center of the Southern Baptist faith, with a large seminary in town. Baptists vie with Catholics as the largest denomination in the city. You will not find a Midwestern city ouside Missouri (one county in Kansas city) that has a signifigant Baptist population. Louisville however does.
The Bible Belt
If it's worth mentioning Richmond Va (former capitol of the Confederacy) has a larger Catholic population than Louisville. While Texas has always had a large Hispanic Catholic population, the cities of San Antonio and Galveston, Texas were hot beds for German Catholics. It should also be noted that Louisville German and Irish in migration was to a MUCH less degree than St.Louis and Cincinnati, so much less that Louisville's blacks will be the largest ancestry in the city within 2 or 3 years.
Louisville like every other Southern city lost black population during the first black migration North. This is quite the opposite in St.Louis and Cincinnati, in which this played a major role in the building of the cities we see today. St.Louis especially was a hotbed for black migrants, which was the complete opposite for Louisville, being steeped in Southern culture and idealology.
Here are two excellent sources showing how Louisville and the South in general held the highest concentration of blacks until the migration.
The physical character of the city is more southern to me. The common vernacular housing of the older pre-WWII city is not like that in other Midwestern cities, where one sees the use of one or two story houses or cottages (sometimes duplex apartments) with the gable end facing the street. Louisville uses the very Southern shotgun house, as well as other forms that are appear to be unique to Louisville, such as a variation on the foursquare. For post WWII building, there was the continued popularity of neoclassical or colonial revival in developer housing. Even the local version of the ranch house sometimes uses wrought iron on the front porches as a sort of generic reference to "New Orleans/River City".
All of the following sources label Louisville and Kentucky as Southern in terms of dialect.
In terms of pop culture, there is that popularity of deep fried fish and seafood, and hush puppies, in local fast food chains. Fairly banal but you dont get hush puppies up north. Ultimatly this is all anecdotal, but from my time in Louisville, compared to Chicago, Louisville is quite southern to me. I really do not see the Midwestern aspect in the city. The place seems to identify more with the South, and feel more southern, than even close-by Midwestern cities like Cincinnati and Indianapolis.
Here is a cultural map created by this nations most reknown geographer D.W. Meinig. He draws the Southern boudary line through Southern the Southern ares of Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio, So obviously Louisville is safely tucked below that line (not saying that it doesn't have Midwestern influence). If you notice however the only Midwestern cities that remotely compare to Louisville (Cincinnati and St.Louis) are litterally on top of the Southern cultural boundary, obviously suggesting that those cities are heavily influenced by the South. Again I'm aware that Louisville has Midwestern influence, however it does not top the Southern influence.
As far as Southern hospitality for a city of over 1.35 million Louisville definantly shows alot of it. This trait doesn't seem to be found in the Midwest.
Eeek. I disagree. I lived in Cincinnati for almost 2 years and there is no difference between Northern Kentucky and Cincinnati. People who were born and raised there will tell you differently because Kentuckians don't want to be associated with "buckeyes" and Cincinnatians don't want to be associated with "hicks." Truth is, it's just one giant spill over. Greater Cincinnati encompasses not only Ohio, but Kentucky and Indiana. Northern Kentucky is NOTHING like the rest of the state. Northern Kentucky is Kentucky's bastard child hahahaha.
The reason I toss this question up is because I'm from southern Kentucky [almost Tennessee]. So we have that southern influence from Tennessee and I always considered Kentucky the south. Then I moved to Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky and realized that the whole state really wasn't. Northern Kentucky has next to no southern culture. People were rude and abrasive. They made fun of my accent and I was asked to repeat things umpteen thousand times a week.
Then this past month I traveled Western Kentucky, and it really didn't seem southern to me, either because of the influence from Missouri. I wouldn't say it was like Northern Kentucky, but it wasn't what I was used to. Then Louisville is right across the river from Indiana - and I wouldn't consider Indiana southern, so I don't see why Louisville would be considered southern, either. hehehehe.
I was just curious as to what other people's perspectives were. I think "technically" Kentucky is a southern state because it's south of the Mason-Dixon line. But I wanted other people's takes on it as well
The Western areas of Kentucky IMO seem to be the most Southern areas of the state. That area of the state holds most of Kentucky's rural African American population, which is a distinct characteristic of the South. This trait is found no where in the Midwest or the rest of the Nation for that matter.
Louisville is a Southern city with a slight Midwestern culture, enough to definantly distinguish itself from say Birmingham or Jackson Mississippi. Actually I think the best term for Louisville is a Mid-Southern city along with Nashville, Richmond, Memphis, Va, Beach, Ect. Southern Indiana along with Southern Illinois are easily distinguishable from the rest of their states. Southern Illinois/ Little Egypt was the only slave holding region in a suppositly non-slave holding state. Southern Indiana's economy and cultural identity is 90% (exaggerated guess) owed to The Gateway city to the South Louisville, which is why people see it as more Southern then Midwestern. I think people get confused when they turn it the other way around and say that Louisville is attached to Indiana, when that is farthest from the truth. It's the opposite with Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky (more Midwestern)
Last edited by Louisvilleslugger; 05-15-2007 at 01:26 PM..
Reason: error
We are really a blended state. People from the deep south and coastal south consider us too northern, without the trademark southern foods, attitudes, and history. Yet people from the midwest (Chicago, northern IN, Detroit, etc) always consider KYians as southerners, with our accents, sweet tea, and use of "ma'am", etc.
Of course, people in northern Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana also consider the southern parts of their state to be somewhat "southern", so it is really a matter of perspective.
For what it's worth, the official corporate groups that make demographic groupings are confused about where to put KY as well. Sometimes its southeast, sometimes it is midwest, and sometimes it just gets its own group with TN, VA, W.VA, etc.
Jzer, First let me welcome you to CD, Be warned . It addictive!! Some of the forums are really great and I was amazed at the friends I have made here. Seems like I have known some all my life. I enjoyed your post and agree about the multiculture of the state. I hope it stays that way. But,"times they are a'changin'" here in Eastern Ky. I have lived here for thirty years, and the change has been pretty close to a 100 percent turn around. When we first came here, I was pretty much out of place, because my family wasn't from here. My hubby was born and raised here. We have had a potpouri of different and interesting cultures added to ours .With the expansion of the college into an Osteopathic School, many of the students like us so much they decide to stay. We have a modern new medical center which includes a cancer center, cardiac center, detox, rehab and so on. Finally, we can stay home for our medical treatments. We have a new Civic Center that provides whatever kind of entertainment we enjoy. Modern highways get us to Lexington, Huntington, Knoxville, or the Smokies all in three or so hours.
I'll be looking for you on some of the forums. I like hanging out at the religion and other topics forums
"Now honestly, I do see why you’d think it has a Midwestern under-culture, but it is a major city. The same argument, I assure you, can be made of New Orleans, Atlanta, Charleston..."
Holy cow, dude! I was simply making a statement based on my observations. I still stand by what I said. I never said the city didn't have a Southern heritage or a Southern feel. I understood the question to regard Louisville's present-day culture-not what it was over 140 years ago.
I do agree that a more Southern culture is embraced by those older. I'm in my early 20s and what I see is based on my experiences of visiting and going out with friends of the same age. I don't think that younger people embrace the Southern culture in the way that the older generation does. Perhaps that's where we see things differently.
Jzer, First let me welcome you to CD, Be warned . It addictive!! Some of the forums are really great and I was amazed at the friends I have made here. Seems like I have known some all my life. I enjoyed your post and agree about the multiculture of the state. I hope it stays that way. But,"times they are a'changin'" here in Eastern Ky. I have lived here for thirty years, and the change has been pretty close to a 100 percent turn around. When we first came here, I was pretty much out of place, because my family wasn't from here. My hubby was born and raised here. We have had a potpouri of different and interesting cultures added to ours .With the expansion of the college into an Osteopathic School, many of the students like us so much they decide to stay. We have a modern new medical center which includes a cancer center, cardiac center, detox, rehab and so on. Finally, we can stay home for our medical treatments. We have a new Civic Center that provides whatever kind of entertainment we enjoy. Modern highways get us to Lexington, Huntington, Knoxville, or the Smokies all in three or so hours.
I'll be looking for you on some of the forums. I like hanging out at the religion and other topics forums
Thanks for the welcome! Oh, and I apologize for that comment about Eastern KY. It was said a bit tongue in cheek. :-)
I think it's crazy to me to see the difference between Lexington and Louisville. Louisville is much more Midwestern - whereas Lexington prides itself on its southern hospitality. Even just being 75 miles apart, it's a world of difference between the two cities.
And the difference between Northern and Southern Kentucky. Holy cow. To be grouped in the same state is insane to me. Northern Kentucky needs to be annexed by Ohio, but unfortunately, that would make our state look odd. I've traveled to every southern state in the USA and I've NEVER experienced the culture shock that I experienced when I moved to Greater Cincinnati.
And to whoever said that Western Kentucky was the most "southern" part of the state. I'm going to have to disagree. Whenever I visited Paducah, I would use southern jargon and no one knew what I was talking about. And I was asked umpteen times to repeat myself because of my strong southern twang. Oh yes, and they didn't have sweet tea in the restaurants I went to. You know that you're not longer in the South when people look at you nuts when you ask for your tea sweet. CRAZY.
But I will agree with whomever said that metropolitan areas somewhat lose their culture because of their size. They have so many different people from so many different walks of life that it just becomes this big melting pot. Even though Atlanta is in Georgia - I would never consider it southern because it's such a diverse combination of people. But Charleston? It's most definitely southern! Charleston makes it a point to keep their southern culture as a focal point of the city. They wear it on their sleeves - loud and proud. It's one of my most favorite cities Everyone was so kind and the culture and history there was amazing.
I think it's crazy to me to see the difference between Lexington and Louisville. Louisville is much more Midwestern - whereas Lexington prides itself on its southern hospitality. Even just being 75 miles apart, it's a world of difference between the two cities.
And the difference between Northern and Southern Kentucky. Holy cow. To be grouped in the same state is insane to me. Northern Kentucky needs to be annexed by Ohio, but unfortunately, that would make our state look odd. I've traveled to every southern state in the USA and I've NEVER experienced the culture shock that I experienced when I moved to Greater Cincinnati.
And to whoever said that Western Kentucky was the most "southern" part of the state. I'm going to have to disagree. Whenever I visited Paducah, I would use southern jargon and no one knew what I was talking about. And I was asked umpteen times to repeat myself because of my strong southern twang. Oh yes, and they didn't have sweet tea in the restaurants I went to. You know that you're not longer in the South when people look at you nuts when you ask for your tea sweet. CRAZY.
But I will agree with whomever said that metropolitan areas somewhat lose their culture because of their size. They have so many different people from so many different walks of life that it just becomes this big melting pot. Even though Atlanta is in Georgia - I would never consider it southern because it's such a diverse combination of people. But Charleston? It's most definitely southern! Charleston makes it a point to keep their southern culture as a focal point of the city. They wear it on their sleeves - loud and proud. It's one of my most favorite cities Everyone was so kind and the culture and history there was amazing.
That's just my $.02.
This sweet tea argument is kind of silly in my opinion. I find it strange that some people in a definate Southern state have never heard of sweet tea. LOL I just got back from Indies (in Louisville) got a breast some wedges and a huge cup of iced sweet tea (which was contained in huge mixer). Go to Kings, Jacks, Big mamma's, in Louisville they have serve sweet tea, it's just a rediculous argument in my opinion to assert that anyone below the Mason Dixon has not heard of sweet tea.
To call Louisville a Midwestern city is saying that it has more in common with Minneanapolis than Nashville or even Birmingham. Louisville does certainly have characteristics unique to the South, But I assure it's culture, History, and architecture are much more in line with Southern cities than Midwestern ones.
Despite your experience I still find a city that prides itself for hosting the International BBQ festival (Owensboro), or a region that has a signifigant rural African American population to be hopelessly Southern. If you'd look at the culture map created by DW Meinig earlier I wouldn't think that I was too off.
BTW I made both of the comment you were refering to.
Holy cow, dude! I was simply making a statement based on my observations. I still stand by what I said. I never said the city didn't have a Southern heritage or a Southern feel. I understood the question to regard Louisville's present-day culture-not what it was over 140 years ago.
I do agree that a more Southern culture is embraced by those older. I'm in my early 20s and what I see is based on my experiences of visiting and going out with friends of the same age. I don't think that younger people embrace the Southern culture in the way that the older generation does. Perhaps that's where we see things differently.
That's a wide misconception alot of people have about the South and it's cities. People still see the South for what it was in the 50' and 60's (Louisville was definantly included amoungst them) for our stubburness and racism. That is long gone in Southern metro areas suchas Nashville, Richmond, or Hell even Birmingham. Here is a study about how residents about each state feel about being called Southern.
John Shelton Reed Percent who say their community is in the South (percentage base in parentheses) Alabama 98 (717) South Carolina 98 (553) Louisiana 97 (606) Mississippi 97 (431) Georgia 97 (1017) Tennessee 97 (838) North Carolina 93 (1292) Arkansas 92 (400) Florida 90 (1792) Texas 84 (2050) Virginia 82 (1014) Kentucky 79 (582) Oklahoma 69 (411) West Virginia 45 (82) Maryland 40 (173) Missouri 23 (177) Delaware 14 (21) D.C. 7 (15)
Percent who say they are Southerners (percentage base in parentheses) Mississippi 90 (432) Louisiana 89 (606) Alabama 88 (716) Tennessee 84 (838) South Carolina 82 (553) Arkansas 81 (399) Georgia 81 (1017) North Carolina 80 (1290) Texas 68 (2053) Kentucky 68 (584) Virginia 60 (1012) Oklahoma 53 (410) Florida 51 (1791) West Virginia 25 (84) Maryland 19 (192) Missouri 15 (197) New Mexico 13 (68) Delaware 12 (25) D.C. 12 (16) Utah 11 (70) Indiana 10 (208) Illinois 9 (362) Ohio 8 (396) Arizona 7 (117) Michigan 6 (336) All others less than 6 percent.
This sweet tea argument is kind of silly in my opinion. I find it strange that some people in a definate Southern state have never heard of sweet tea. LOL I just got back from Indies (in Louisville) got a breast some wedges and a huge cup of iced sweet tea (which was contained in huge mixer). Go to Kings, Jacks, Big mamma's, in Louisville they have serve sweet tea, it's just a rediculous argument in my opinion to assert that anyone below the Mason Dixon has not heard of sweet tea.
To call Louisville a Midwestern city is saying that it has more in common with Minneanapolis than Nashville or even Birmingham. Louisville does certainly have characteristics unique to the South, But I assure it's culture, History, and architecture are much more in line with Southern cities than Midwestern ones.
Despite your experience I still find a city that prides itself for hosting the International BBQ festival (Owensboro), or a region that has a signifigant rural African American population to be hopelessly Southern. If you'd look at the culture map created by DW Meinig earlier I wouldn't think that I was too off.
BTW I made both of the comment you were refering to.
I was being mildly facetious with the sweet tea argument. I mean, I've gotten sweet tea in Columbus, Ohio and it's definitely not the south. Granted, it wasn't good, but they still had it available.
And I wouldn't compare Louisville to Minneapolis. I was thinking more along the lines of St. Louis, Cincinnati or Columbus. All Midwestern cities that I think Louisville reflects. And the BBQ Festival is in Owensboro - which is over 100 miles away from Louisville...?
I went to school about 45 miles outside of Nashville, and I really don't think Louisville could ever compare to the southern culture that Nashville has. I like Louisville and the culture that they have - but I wouldn't ever group Nashville and Louisville in the same category.
Saying Louisville is Midwestern isn't an insult. It's like Northern Kentucky because they both border states that are definitely considered Midwestern. It's just a different culture than the rest of the state. Also, they seem to have a non-regional dialect - which is common of Midwesterners. They don't have a distinctive accent where you want to place them. Granted, it may be because my twang is so thick - and they sound more "northern" to me.
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The Bible Belt
hahahaha. 
