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That’s how I can best describe my feelings too. It’s hard to explain exactly but I loved Green Valley right away, I strongly disliked Summerlin despite spending an entire day there. It looked more desolate than I expected versus Green Valley that lives up to its name. Downtown Summerlin seemed to me a work in progress, it wasn’t busy, or walkable, or interesting. It was just kind of... there. And very overpriced. I’m glad other people like it, something for everyone to be sure, and many expensive houses there but I didn’t feel you’re getting what you pay for at all.
When it comes down to it until you see each area you just can’t know what will feel right to you. I thought I’d love Summerlin, but ruled it out completely after my trip.
Did you see Tivoli Village and the area around there? We love it there...
This would be sooo nice. We have an Albertson's nearby, and their carts sometimes end up at the edge of our neighborhood. I went and talked to one of the managers about it, and she agreed that it would be nice to have one of those. But corporate didn't want to spend the money to install one.
We agreed that in the long run it would be cheaper to install the system instead of either paying a company to retrieve it, do it themselves or just lose a cart. Those systems are a win/win for the store and the surrounding neighborhoods.
I would give you fair warning... every time I've seen abandoned carts piling up near my neighborhood, a squatter house has been found nearby shortly after. There tend to be more squats this time of year because its getting cold out and they go looking for empty rentals and foreclosures to break into.
Did you see Tivoli Village and the area around there? We love it there...
Tivoli Village is basically a failed project ala Lake Las Vegas. I'm not saying don't buy or live near there, but I don't think its every going to fully develop as originally planned. The property managers are giving tenants there years of free rent and the businesses still keep going under.
Tivoli Village is basically a failed project ala Lake Las Vegas. I'm not saying don't buy or live near there, but I don't think its every going to fully develop as originally planned. The property managers are giving tenants there years of free rent and the businesses still keep going under.
Actually about 70% or more completed. And pretty popular. There is a pretty good set of commercial tenants so the roll over in restaurants should not be a killer.
Actually about 70% or more completed. And pretty popular. There is a pretty good set of commercial tenants so the roll over in restaurants should not be a killer.
We like the place and hit it periodically.
But hasn't it been 70% completed for several years, now? I'm not saying there's nothing there, and it is nice, and seems to be fairly well maintained at the moment. But, I believe their goal there was to do a second GVR and to that end, it has failed.
When people are on here talking about walkable districts, places like Tivoli, Lake Las Vegas, and GVR are the developers' response to the demand for walkable districts. In my opinion, the market has spoken on these, and they just aren't very popular. I guess GVR looks like its doing okay, but the last time I looked at listings there I saw a LOT of condos for sale there.
I think its fine to buy and live in one of these developments, so long as you're not expecting that they are going to turn into the bustling, walkable city districts that were promised.
I think one of the problems is that the trend prior to '08 was to make everything more upscale, higher-end, trendy and also with higher pricing to match(and higher profit margins). In my opinion, what we are seeing now (and this probably includes some of the problems the casinos are having as well) is that the market for the urban, jet-setting "whale" with flush bank accounts and deep pockets is losing steam. They were betting that there would be a substantial supply of this "higher-end" clientele to buy up all their $100 club tickets and $500K condos, when the fact is that the real market is the much larger middle class with dwindling spending power and incomes that have not substantially increased in 30 years.
They've now priced the middle class out of the market, and exhausted their supply of jet-setters and the market will now have to adjust again to those who will actually spend their money, at a lower price point. The problem with condos or houses in GVR or Lake Las Vegas, and the likely reason there is low occupancy and stalled development, is because HOA fees alone are nearly half the cost of an entire mortgage payment anywhere else in the city.
When I was growing up, a "nice" middle class house had oak cabinets, formica countertops, brass fixtures, a sliding glass door out back, and a basic dishwasher and garbage disposal in the kitchen, and double pane windows. Nowadays, a "nice" middle class house needs quartz countertops, soft close drawers and cabniet pull-outs, high-end tile in showers and tubs with multiple shower heads, crown molding, chair rails, manufactured hardwood and tile floors, recessed lighting, tuscan stone crap on the outside of the house, etc etc. The fact is, the middle class can't actually afford any of these things.
You see the same trend in cars - every car now has to have power everything, sun roof, tinted windows, touch screen navigation and entertainment systems, reclining and removable seats, backup cameras, etc etc. Its this reason GM is failing at selling Sedans - you can't buy a basic car anymore.
That's really not a bad point. The more features that are offered, the more things cost, but that doesn't always allow everyone to afford it, so that can push back the time at which people are even able to consider buying a house. I really like Green Valley Ranch, though, I am not saying for buying there, but I loved walking around The District and I like that upscale feel. When I was first exploring Vegas outside of the Strip, I was a little timid about it, because I like the glitz and glamor of the Strip and I like everything to feel new, shiny, special, but some of the places I drove by outside of the Strip were like drive on this road for 5 miles and somehow drive directly past 4 different Walgreens or was it CVS, I don't know, but it seemed like there were endless pointless little strip malls with chain crap in them, and that's just not a good look anywhere. It may be practical but it's ugly and depressing to see. So when I saw something like The District, and the surrounding area, I thought yeah, this looks more like what I'd expect from a place to call home.
Vegas is a tough market, though, it's an interesting place. I'll never get over the disconnect between people parroting the "average house price" in Vegas and then saying it's an inexpensive market, without concern for what the average house actually is in the city. The average house may be only $300K, but the average house in Vegas is way worse than the average house almost anywhere else in the country except big coastal cities. The lots are TINY, pathetically tiny, even houses for $1M are on some of the saddest lots you can imagine, you'd be lucky to find 15,000 square feet at that price, unless you're out in NW or far Henderson then you can get half-acre lots with nice houses for $750K to $900K but the vast majority of the budget homes in that market are on lots so small they almost touch their neighbors and the houses are extremely small, too. The middle class already has it tough in Vegas even buying a home at all, but "the average home" isn't what people in most parts of the country would find all that average. It's more like the average home looks like something that would be bottom 20% anywhere else, with no yard, no space, and no architectural appeal whatsoever. You would see $300K really nice looking homes in many of the flyover states, so there's only so much sacrificing people want to do on amenities probably inside of their tiny homes on their tiny lots, and you can't blame them.
I'd argue despite the "average" price, Vegas is a very expensive housing market as it costs a lot of money to get anything beyond a very cookie cutter tiny home with no yard. It's a market where the sheer number of mass produced cookie cutter homes has driven down the "average" price to make people think it's a cheap market, but when they start looking around they realize it's actually quite expensive to get anything beyond those basic homes.
The small lot trend isn't really specific to Las Vegas. Similar McMansions on small lots have been built back east since the 90s. Out there they also have townhouses, where there is basically no lot at all(in fact, they are zoned as condos) which I have seen precious few of, here. I believe mine is on a 1/3 acre lot which is very tight considering the size of my house and the new construction appears to be even tighter than that with no front or rear yard at all to speak of, or on a zero lot with about 2 feet between the houses.
A lot of it is down to zoning. I'm in R2 zoning which is medium density urban. I think in areas like this the developers would do better with townhouses instead of trying to cram a normal size house on a tiny lot.
My point with the developments like GVR is I think their targeting is a little too upscale. In my opinion, the target market for such areas will be young professional singles and couples with no kids who are no longer in school, and still want to be close to some local amenities and nightlife.
The market these developments seem to target are wealthy professionals. The trouble is, I think most wealthy professionals don't want a condo above the shopping mall and could probably care less about walkability. The local store access is a convenience but the same market would just as well hop in the SUV and drive to the local Target or high end outlet center with an occasional foray into more expensive shopping districts.
But hasn't it been 70% completed for several years, now? I'm not saying there's nothing there, and it is nice, and seems to be fairly well maintained at the moment. But, I believe their goal there was to do a second GVR and to that end, it has failed.
When people are on here talking about walkable districts, places like Tivoli, Lake Las Vegas, and GVR are the developers' response to the demand for walkable districts. In my opinion, the market has spoken on these, and they just aren't very popular. I guess GVR looks like its doing okay, but the last time I looked at listings there I saw a LOT of condos for sale there.
I think its fine to buy and live in one of these developments, so long as you're not expecting that they are going to turn into the bustling, walkable city districts that were promised.
I think one of the problems is that the trend prior to '08 was to make everything more upscale, higher-end, trendy and also with higher pricing to match(and higher profit margins). In my opinion, what we are seeing now (and this probably includes some of the problems the casinos are having as well) is that the market for the urban, jet-setting "whale" with flush bank accounts and deep pockets is losing steam. They were betting that there would be a substantial supply of this "higher-end" clientele to buy up all their $100 club tickets and $500K condos, when the fact is that the real market is the much larger middle class with dwindling spending power and incomes that have not substantially increased in 30 years.
They've now priced the middle class out of the market, and exhausted their supply of jet-setters and the market will now have to adjust again to those who will actually spend their money, at a lower price point. The problem with condos or houses in GVR or Lake Las Vegas, and the likely reason there is low occupancy and stalled development, is because HOA fees alone are nearly half the cost of an entire mortgage payment anywhere else in the city.
When I was growing up, a "nice" middle class house had oak cabinets, formica countertops, brass fixtures, a sliding glass door out back, and a basic dishwasher and garbage disposal in the kitchen, and double pane windows. Nowadays, a "nice" middle class house needs quartz countertops, soft close drawers and cabniet pull-outs, high-end tile in showers and tubs with multiple shower heads, crown molding, chair rails, manufactured hardwood and tile floors, recessed lighting, tuscan stone crap on the outside of the house, etc etc. The fact is, the middle class can't actually afford any of these things.
You see the same trend in cars - every car now has to have power everything, sun roof, tinted windows, touch screen navigation and entertainment systems, reclining and removable seats, backup cameras, etc etc. Its this reason GM is failing at selling Sedans - you can't buy a basic car anymore.
Nope. There are no dwelling units in Tivoli and it is less than 30 acres. May have had some condo aspirations early on but never executed. And simply not in the same class as GVR or Lake Las Vegas.
Lake Las Vegas was even more different as they wanted to be an end destination with inherent resort features and ended up priced like the strip not good suburban real estate. Very high HOA fees.
The homes in GVR are relatively normal single family residents and the lots are not small. In fact generally a little better than the later Anthem projects. Don't confuse GVR, a large residential tract with the condos above the stores...that is only a tiny part of GVR.
You might also note that the small lot configuration was very common in places like Desert Shores and Painted Desert. They compensated for the land used for their featured things by building with tight lots. if you look at the overall homes per acre they are normal. But they actually have quite tight lots.
Verbal permission has been granted to my transfer to Las Vegas, with paperwork by HR still needing to be processed. Until that happens, I do not consider it a go.
Figured I would use this thread and close the loop on the above statement I made ...
All paperwork has now been finished, filed, and announced to the team at work. I will be transferring to our Las Vegas office around the end of January.
We've made the decision to rent first, but are still deciding on an actual property. First choice is in the 89129 zip. Will hopefully get that all sorted very soon.
Figured I would use this thread and close the loop on the above statement I made ...
All paperwork has now been finished, filed, and announced to the team at work. I will be transferring to our Las Vegas office around the end of January.
We've made the decision to rent first, but are still deciding on an actual property. First choice is in the 89129 zip. Will hopefully get that all sorted very soon.
~C
Not a bad choice. I would stay west of Buffalo.
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