Let's discuss the H-1B program... (green card, GC, H1B, residents)
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Reading my previous threads, you will notice that I am not a fan of the H-1B guest worker program.
But, I have done more probing into this topic. And have some specific questions about it.
1.) Is it right that an H-1B worker is sponsored by a company? That all the control is in the companies hands? These workers cannot easily quit and work somewhere better, or somewhere with better pay? This is SUPPOSED to be a capitalist nation, but it seems many (not all) H-1B are treated like second class resident.
2.) Is it right that their dependents cannot work? Reinforcing the second class resident idea?
3.) Is it right that they have to wait for their green card to be sponsored by their company?
Considering that all of the above is true of the current program, it seems as though these people are almost treated as slaves or indentured servants to these companies. How can a free US resident or worker be expected to compete against an indentured servant?
H-1B workers are not slaves. Nobody forces these people to come to the US on H-1B visa. They are also free to quit their jobs at any time.
Neither slaves nor indentured servants can do all those things.
In addition, you're saying that H-1B people are treated like second class residents. Well, H-1B is considered to be a TEMPORARY visa, so what do you expect? Of course, due to the visa terms, they have fewer rights than US citizens or permanent residence (a.k.a. green card holders) who have PERMANENT status in the country. Is that fair? Maybe not, but those are the terms of H-1B visa.
Of course, H-1B workers (and their family members) have certain restrictions due to their H-1B status in the US. However, nobody forced this status on them and nobody holds them as captives or forces them to stay and work.
H-1B visa is a contract which both sides are free to break at any time, no more no less.
I'd probably give those people the right to apply for a Green card themselves after a certain period of time working on H-1B instead of waiting until their employer sponsors them. I'd also cut green card processing times. The way, the Canadian system works.
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 10-17-2013 at 02:43 PM..
As you suggested - I read some of your postings. Quit whining! Buy your clothes at Nordstrom (the outlets are unbeatable) and a day or two of meatless meals might have more impact on your future then an H1B competitor.
H-1B workers are not slaves. Nobody forces these people to come to the US on H-1B visa. They are also free to quit their jobs at any time.
Neither slaves nor indentured servants can do all those things.
In addition, you're saying that H-1B people are treated like second class residents. Well, H-1B is considered to be a TEMPORARY visa, so what do you expect? Of course, due to the visa terms, they have fewer rights than US citizens or permanent residence (a.k.a. green card holders) who have PERMANENT status in the country. Is that fair? Maybe not, but those are the terms of H-1B visa.
Of course, H-1B workers (and their family members) have certain restrictions due to their H-1B status in the US. However, nobody forced this status on them and nobody holds them as captives or forces them to stay and work.
H-1B visa is a contract which both sides are free to break at any time, no more no less.
I'd probably give those people the right to apply for a Green card themselves after a certain period of time working on H-1B instead of waiting until their employer sponsors them. I'd also cut green card processing times. The way, the Canadian system works.
Slave and indentured servant are strong words.
But, the point is that working at company x means Joe H-1B is happy to work longer hours, take lower wages, and unable to compete for better jobs due to the H-1B contract. Not only that, but I've read a few stories about how companies promised to sponsor GC, but didn't. So when the contract was up, Joe H-1B went home. But, this is not fair to Joe H-1B or American workers. American workers are not willing to take lower pay in order to stay in America. And Joe H-1B is not able to compete for his best wage and working conditions.
Personally, I think this hurts America in two ways. 1.) American's don't have the job, so a portion of Joe H-1B's taxes are going to his government. 2.) Joe isn't making as much as Joe is worth, so Joe isn't paying as much taxes to the US gov as he should be for the value he adds to the company.
As you suggested - I read some of your postings. Quit whining! Buy your clothes at Nordstrom (the outlets are unbeatable) and a day or two of meatless meals might have more impact on your future then an H1B competitor.
They are not competitors. They are given jobs. Competitors imply that these companies are looking for US talent and they are not, nor are they required to.
But, the point is that working at company x means Joe H-1B is happy to work longer hours, take lower wages, and unable to compete for better jobs due to the H-1B contract. Not only that, but I've read a few stories about how companies promised to sponsor GC, but didn't. So when the contract was up, Joe H-1B went home. But, this is not fair to Joe H-1B or American workers. American workers are not willing to take lower pay in order to stay in America. And Joe H-1B is not able to compete for his best wage and working conditions.
Personally, I think this hurts America in two ways. 1.) American's don't have the job, so a portion of Joe H-1B's taxes are going to his government. 2.) Joe isn't making as much as Joe is worth, so Joe isn't paying as much taxes to the US gov as he should be for the value he adds to the company.
Who is Joe? Are you not Sarah Palin, by chance?
Seriously though, this is what I think:
1. Joe should not come to the US on H-1B visa is he/she and their family would be unhappy. Once again, Joe is a free person living in a free world.
2. I don't think, 65,000 H-1B workers per year in particular professions could seriously hurt America and American workers. I could be wrong, of course, as I didn't do any serious economic or statistical analysis.
Just to add, I do believe working and living in the US on H-1B visa sometimes is not easy, especially if you want to change a job or a location. In addition, if you lose the job, you have to leave the country in like 10 days, I heard.
I do think, that this status sucks, but contract is contract. In addition, you do have to agree that, for many people, this may be the only way to get US green card one day, hopefully.
1. Joe should not come to the US on H-1B visa is he/she and their family would be unhappy. Once again, Joe is a free person living in a free world.
2. I don't think, 65,000 H-1B workers per year in particular professions could seriously hurt America and American workers. I could be wrong, of course, as I didn't do any serious economic or statistical analysis.
Just to add, I do believe working and living in the US on H-1B visa sometimes is not easy, especially if you want to change a job or a location. In addition, if you lose the job, you have to leave the country in like 10 days, I heard.
I do think, that this status sucks, but contract is contract. In addition, you do have to agree that, for many people, this may be the only way to get US green card one day, hopefully.
Point 2, the problem is that we allow more than 65k H-1B workers (Somehow there were 135k issues last year), and Congress plans to vote to raise that limit this year. There are estimates that say that the US loses close to $3 Billion in taxes every year because H-1B workers are paid below market value. Then considering tax treaties (say with India) that say the US government has to return a portion of it's collected tax dollars from Indian Citizens, means we are loosing a load of tax dollars.
The other thing about point, that I was trying to not get into, is that college grads in the STEM fields have a pretty high unemployment rate. 60-67% of college engineering grads from the 2012 class that were looking for work, found work. Meaning that 30-40% couldn't find engineering jobs. These are grads from Georgia Tech, PENN, Michigan, Perdu, Ohio State etc. So:
1.) these people are not being hired at market rate
2.) a portion of their tax $$ go to the country they are a national of
3.) US college grads are not finding work
Your right that a contact is a contract, but immigration should be between a government and a person, not a company, a person, and a government. This current relationship is screwy. I agree people should be able to sponsor themselves like in Canada. Remove the middle man!
OK - engineering is your field. Once you factor STEM grads through OTP and H1B in - a lot of US grads barely cut the mustard. BTW - H1B is a long shot from slavery but often a sure route to Green Card.
OK - engineering is your field. Once you factor STEM grads through OTP and H1B in - a lot of US grads barely cut the mustard. BTW - H1B is a long shot from slavery but often a sure route to Green Card.
1.) Most of the top engineering programs in the world are in the US.
2.) This is a relationship between American workers and their government. It is completely fair for countries to require companies hire it's residents first. After all, all taxes collected from US residents go to the US government. A US resident will be in the US for their lifetime, is able to collect unemployment, and government aid. The US needs to prioritize it's residents. Beyond that, India doesn't hire as many American workers.
3.) I think it's excessive to tell US students to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars obtaining an engineering degree (and for the federal and state government to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on these students), only to tell them "You don't deserve a job because you don't cut the mustard. Go work at Burger King". And FYI we don't do this with other fields. We don't say "Hey Obama, You suck. We are going to hire a foreign President."
4.) Many H-1B's that want GC do not get it. (This is actually my point). Companies often promise these workers they will sponsor them for a GC, but they don't. These people should be able to sponsor themselves. And if there was a shortage (which there isn't), these people should be able to sponsor themselves for work. The control should be taken out of the hands of the companies.
Guest workers and American workers aside, COMPANIES ARE EVIL. And they always have been.
Slavery is a strong word to use but changing jobs while on H1B can be annoying. Lot of companies understandably do not want to get entangled with the legal process of sponsoring H1B. On top of that, if a company started your green card process, you have to stick with the company until and even after you get the green card for some time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by movingwiththewind
In addition, if you lose the job, you have to leave the country in like 10 days, I heard.
Not true. If you lose the job, you have to leave the country IMMEDIATELY. There is no 10 day grace period, that's just a misconception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by candycanechick
(Somehow there were 135k issues last year), Then considering tax treaties (say with India) that say the US government has to return a portion of it's collected tax dollars from Indian Citizens, means we are loosing a load of tax dollars.
There weren't 135K. 65K has been the limit for quite some time now. And there is no such tax treaty with India. H1Bs have to pay all taxes and deductions just like US citizens and contrary to what many people think, H1Bs do not get back benefits like Social security, unemployment etc.
Not many people realize this, but it's the outsourcing that hurts US economy much more than H1B visa program. Outsourcing makes sure that the job remains out of US for good and outsourcing companies have lot of other ways to place the workers in American workplaces without relying on H1B.
How do I know? I'm on H1B. Standing in the "line for green card" for past 7 years. There are minor inconveniences with being on a H1B visa but all in all, I've been living cheerfully in this great country for the past 10 years.
P.S - I'm not going to reply to any racist and xenophobic rants. I have better things to do in my life.
Last edited by Kannadiga; 10-17-2013 at 04:29 PM..
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