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If you shut the buses down, you destroy Nassau's economy. NCC students wont be able to get to school (a vast majority of them use LI Bus), stores wont be able to get workers, many businesses will shut down. A vast amount of folks also come over from here from Queens to shop and use LIB. So bye bye tax revenue. Many ppl wont be able to get to work and lose their jobs and show up at the welfare office. And the rich snobs who hire the day laborers to clean their lawns wont be happy either when they'll have to mow their own lawn.
I got a newsflash for ya, the roads are clogged to capacity, and we dont have room for more cars. We need more buses and more people riding them. I see plenty of ppl who can afford lxury SUV's at 10mpg so a small increase in the gas tax could easily pay for LIB. Bus drivers have the responsibility of 40 or more people and deserve to paid well.
Amazing how some folks can be so short sighted.
But not suprising.
Cite any source that points to a vast majority... (60%, more even?) of NCC students taking the Bus to school.
oh no, i have no problem grasping that nassau can't afford it.. never said they could. but neither can the mta, who you came out wildly swinging at...
i'm lol'ing at the inconsistency in your blame and your "facts". first nassau was 'taking on most of the cost', then you say "NC subsidizes about 1/3rd" when in reality (and as stated in the report) it's 10 percent...
Inconsistency? really? I'm sorry if my viewing of LIBus as a separate money-losing entity under Nassau County ownership caused any confusion. We obviously don't think alike (refer to the GM-Saturn-Olds relationship).
My facts are correct. You should double-check yours and not simply look at a pie chart as your false premise that Nassau only pays 10%. What about the giant 54% in dedicated taxes that Nassau county pays towards LIBS in the form of the Transportation District Tax (MCTD) and the Personal Mobility Tax (PMT)? What about the exorbitant pensions, benefits and free health care for life that Nassau County is going to be forever burdened with?? If you add in the above, Nassau's contribution toward LIBS likely goes well above 33% and probably closer to 50%. You probably should have actually read this first > http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agenci...StudyFINAL.pdf before making 3 posts of irrelevant, incorrect information.
Now, as seanx4 pointed out on page 2 with his excellent due diligence: the SALARY WAGE & BENEFITS component taking up a MASSIVE 80% of libs budget, is the major beef that Nassau County has with MTA. I am sure the MTA needs libus much more than Nassau county does! I hope we nix it to reduce the size and power of these giant vampire squid unions. Either that or raise fares to reduce the county's burden and distribute fliers to every single rider to show them why we need to raise fares. See..Libus is more than appears to be on surface. It's a fine example of how unions throw the blame at everyone else except themselves. They blame Mangano, taxpayers and nassau county.... and riders believe it!! Again this is a major reason NY is in shambles, everybody fighting against each other when the problem is fairly obvious.
Here's a look at some public information of Metropolitan Transportation Authority's Long Island Bus SALARY component. This is a rough copy/paste of the top 100 salaries out of 1200 total. The salary next to "Annual" is followed by YTD salary which includes Overtime. Names are left out of course but again this is public information. (Note the lines in RED are instances where OT exceeded 50% of base salary).. Remember, with each of these salaries is a giant pension burden to the county, so double what you see here to get an idea of the redundancy, waste and actual deficit footprint it leaves on us):
The excessive waste runs about 30 pages deep (almost half of the employees!) .. Am I picking on LIBus employees? No, I am picking on the unions for allowing it to be run like a free-for-all and for looting of taxpayers. Storekeepers pulling in $105k G's -- 2x their base salaries via OT abuse?? C'mon man, who's really to blame here? The MTA is. Kudos to sean sean sean for his excellent research and I'm going to quote his work below.. because he really nailed it on the head and made a great comparison via a better run Hamptons road transit vs the poorly run, wasteful & bloated MTA Long Island BUS: (from this post here)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean sean sean sean
TOTAL OPERATING EXPENSES:
-LI BUS: $128,525,707 (100%)
-HRT: $74,479,805 (100%)
I think that pretty much speaks for itself. Maintenance costs? Pfft...a mere 20% of the budget, and $5 million less than a comparably sized system in Virginia. Purchasing new vehicles? LI Bus spent $0 on them in 2009. Redundant, overpaid administrative positions? Sure....they're part of the problem, but when we're talking about $102 million dollars a year it puts in perspective how much more bloat is out there than a handful of six-figure pencil pushers. You can talk about what people "deserve", what you think "is fair" and "tough jobs" or "agendas" all day, but if you think your taxes are unreasonably high and would like that to change, then looking at something like this (and the breakdown is the same for all other government agencies) should really drive home where the problem is and what is needed to fix it. This is the bottom line, beyond all the sentimental BS and emotions and opinions: You can't pay people Don Draper money for doing Ralph Kramden jobs.
Some positions do require the safety of 40 passengers as JIW stated and some are so simple that technology or streamlining operations could replace them. But the safety of 40 passengers is not valid.. does that mean we should go out and pay roller coaster operators at any amusement park a $Quarter million DOLLARS a year?/ $100K+OT+Benefits+Lucrative Pension+free health care for life and retirement in 20 years (a $100k union salary is effectively $250k/yr salary). Again, this is nothing personal against LIBS. But the problem is, this abuse is rampant across all other government agencies . And the unions are the main enablers in the abuse because it helps them to grow in size and power.
My facts are correct. You should double-check yours and not simply look at a pie chart as your false premise that Nassau only pays 10%. What about the giant 54% in dedicated taxes that Nassau county pays towards LIBS in the form of the Transportation District Tax (MCTD) and the Personal Mobility Tax (PMT)? What about the exorbitant pensions, benefits and free health care for life that Nassau County is going to be forever burdened with?? If you add in the above, Nassau's contribution toward LIBS likely goes well above 33% and probably closer to 50%. You probably should have actually read this first > http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agenci...StudyFINAL.pdf before making 3 posts of irrelevant, incorrect information.
54% of funding for li bus comes from MMTOA which is from state imposed taxes collected from throughout the metropolitan commuter transportation district, NOT FROM NASSAU COUNTY GOVERNMENT...
are employers in nassau paying the pmt? yes, just like employers not in nassau
are residents in nassau paying an mta sales tax? yes, so are residents not in nassau, as well as non-nassau residents doing their shopping on the miracle mile
but those taxes collected are NOT FROM NASSAU COUNTY GOVERNMENT...
54% of funding for li bus comes from MMTOA which is from state imposed taxes collected from throughout the metropolitan commuter transportation district, NOT FROM NASSAU COUNTY GOVERNMENT...
are employers in nassau paying the pmt? yes, just like employers not in nassau
are residents in nassau paying an mta sales tax? yes, so are residents not in nassau, as well as non-nassau residents doing their shopping on the miracle mile
but those taxes collected are NOT FROM NASSAU COUNTY GOVERNMENT...
I never stated Nassau pays the entire tax. If you add our(nassau county) portion + all the other factors I mentioned, it likely brings the total closer to 33%. You claimed it was 10%. Who is way off? 10% was just nassau's cash subsidy. You excluded everything else simply from looking at a pie chart. And the problem is what about the exorbitant pensions, benefits and free health care for life that Nassau County is going to be forever burdened with?? Simply ignoring and failing to address that MAJOR COST aspect of Nassau's burden will not make it go away! That's what brings it to close to 50% for a service that 9 out of 10 of us (you know, the ONES PAYING FOR IT) do not even use.
Why is this so hard to grasp now? , there was no reason to interject disinformation saying "it's only 10%".
Quote:
Originally Posted by ENFD240
then you say "NC subsidizes about 1/3rd" when in reality (and as stated in the report) it's 10 percent...
-MISLEADING AND OFF BY A MILE
And the main issue: Nassau is paying more and more for crappier and crappier service. Have you ever tried to use the bus when you need it? Look at sean's example of trying to go a few towns over to freeport taking 1.5 hours!! a ten minute drive botched by MTA to take 1.5 hours is a farce. That's why Nassau doesn't need it. when my car is in the shop I look at LI Bus and it's a freakin disaster trying to get anywhere (20 minute trips are 1-2 hours filled with transfers and waiting and late buses). It's a disgrace and I end up taking a cab anyway as most of us in Nassau county do that do not use buses on a daily basis. Need more proof these entitlement programs forced down our throat are a scam? Look at JIW's experiences. If MTA wants more $, they're barking up the wrong tree. Tell them to cut the waste out of their own system, then we'll talk.
And the problem is what about the exorbitant pensions
based on this one statement alone, i can tell you have no real knoweldge of the expense/funding...
the pension amounts in li bus' budget are annual required contributions to the nys pension system which is calculated by actuarials.
these calculations are based on life expectencies/number of employees/projected salaries/ror on investments/etc/etc. so to adequately fund the pensions of current and future retirees, li bus needs to pay into the system x number of dollars.
when an employee retires he is paid from the nys pension plan fund and not by nassau county
nassau county is not funding li bus pensions outside of the ARC which is in li bus budget
nassau county is contributing 10% towards this budget
edit: i'm not arguing that union wages are outta control and that the whole system costs too much for the service, is a slow way to go, etc... and personally i don't ride buses, too many weird people ride them
I voted for "Option C", but I can't really get behind any of them 100%
I think a lot of government services could and should be privatized, but public transportation will always have to be at least partially subsidized by taxpayer money no matter how efficiently they operate or how little their employees are paid. I might be slightly off on this, but I remember reading somewhere that the only mass transit system on the planet that operates solely on it's own revenue is the Tokyo Subway....ONE out of hundreds of thousands worldwide.
Are you sure there aren't other instances of privatization that worked?
I read somewhere about "Foothill Transit" in LA taking over some areas at a fraction of the cost and the service improved 10 fold. Not really sure about private options, I would just get rid of it or raise the fares along with fliers to every rider showing them a snapshot of LIBUS' balance sheet and where their money is going (MTA).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ENFD240
when an employee retires he is paid from the nys pension plan fund and not by nassau county
nassau county is not funding li bus pensions outside of the ARC which is in li bus budget
nassau county is contributing 10% towards this budget
edit: i'm not arguing that union wages are outta control and that the whole system costs too much for the service, is a slow way to go, etc... and personally i don't ride buses, too many weird people ride them
Either way the problem is a systemic one and we need to stop doing business with unions, this is a good start. LI as a whole (unless we secede from NY) is paying for service that we don't really need and this is one of the reasons why NYS is extracting so much in taxes from all of its taxpayers. LI is a huge source of this extortion. Just because Nassau doesn't pay it directly, doesn't mean the MTA isn't robbing peter to pay paul in some indirect way.
To say that nassau only pays 10% and that I have no clue how it works is a little absurd.. this figure is A LOT more than 10%, which probably closer to 33% was stated in this entire thread. Whether they take it through our NYS income tax, the new MTA taxes, highest fares from our residents, our registration fees (Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District" fee when we go to register our cars which now costs $160, was $80 to do few yrs ago), the MTA payroll tax etc, etc They're sneaking in the new taxes everywhere.
NY has the highest taxes in the country because of unions like the MTA. Unions are a scourge on society. I hope they do away with it and LI won't have to pay all the new MTA taxes. The MTA loves stealing from businesses and the self-employed on LI.
"Good. No more MTA Tax on my cars. No more MTA on my business. No more MTA payroll tax. What? I'm still paying the taxes and not getting the benefit of the service? If Nassau County picks up support of MTA Bus I'll be paying twice, once for getting the service from Nassau County and again for not getting the service from the MTA? We need an MTA Tea Party!! "
Cite any source that points to a vast majority... (60%, more even?) of NCC students taking the Bus to school.
Well, I often see at least a few hundred students waiting at the bus stops at any given time at NCC. I see one bus after another, packed.
Looking at times when classes let out, I'd say a good 60% of students are heading for the bus stops and not the parking lots.
Even if I'm over-estimating and its more like 35-40%, that's still a very significant percentage of students.
Here's the problem. Nassau contributes 9 million for a $120 million operation, which is LESS than 10%.
The other taxes the MTA collects go to the MTA as a whole, and not LI Bus or LIRR in particular. In alot of ways. LI'ers are helping subsidize transit for those in NYC.
The payroll taxes, vehicle fees, all goes to the MTA as a whole. That may be the problem.
Instead, keep revenue collected from Long Island IN LONG ISLAND.
Privitization of transit systems does not work. And often it can cost more. All the MTA needs is 26 million from Nassau. They're not asking for it right away, but over a gradual increase in time. All counties and cities chip in a significant portion of money to fund mass transit. Nassau hasn't, and now that the MTA is in a crunch, they no longer can afford to do it.
Everyone else is looking at Nassau and saying "why are they getting a free ride"?
Its not always that cut and dry though, as people in Nassau are upset at the taxes they already pay to the MTA, but those are going toward NYC operations and not so much toward LI. Thats what needs to change.
That or form a new Transportation Authority to run buses and the LIRR here on the island.
And I already know about the MTA Board meeting and not suprised, the MTA cant afford to bail out Nassau anymore and Nassau needs to step up and take responsibility.
As far as cutting service goes, I'd like you to ride any bus out of Nassau Community College on a weekday, or any of the "major" routes like the N20,22,27,15,6,etc and tell me where those people are supposed to go when the bus service is reduced. Unless you want to make plans for seats on the roof...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman
Are you sure there aren't other instances of privatization that worked?
I read somewhere about "Foothill Transit" in LA privatizing at a fraction of the cost and the service improved 10 fold. Not really sure about private options, I would just get rid of it or raise the fares along with fliers to every rider showing them a snapshot of LIBUS' balance sheet and where their money is going.
Either way the problem is a systemic one and we need to stop doing business with unions, this is a good start. LI as a whole (unless we secede from NY) is paying for service that we don't really need and this is one of the reasons why NYS is extracting so much in taxes from all of its taxpayers. LI is a huge source of this extortion. Just because Nassau doesn't pay it directly, doesn't mean the MTA isn't robbing peter to pay paul in some indirect way.
To say that nassau only pays 10% and that I have no clue how it works is a little absurd.. this figure is A LOT more than 10%, which probably closer to 33% was stated in this entire thread. Whether they take it through our NYS income tax, the new MTA taxes, highest fares from our residents, our registration fees (Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District" fee when we go to register our cars which now costs $160, was $80 to do few yrs ago), the MTA payroll tax etc, etc They're sneaking in the new taxes everywhere.
NY has the highest taxes in the country because of unions like the MTA. Unions are a scourge on society. I hope they do away with it and LI won't have to pay all the new MTA taxes. The MTA loves stealing from businesses and the self-employed on LI.
And dont forget this also is typical in NYC Transit and the Long island Railroad as well, perhaps worse. The Line supervision is the largest waste I would agree upon, this could all be replaced via a central control which is already easy enough to do considering all the buses have GPS.
There's a saying at the MTA that it takes 5 workers to screw in a lightbulb.
This isn't a problem with LI Bus, its an MTA-wide problem. Too many layers of management and inefficiencies. The MTA needs to be completely overhauled. Jay Walder always says he is 'changing the way we do business" but its really business as usual.
I do believe bus drivers should be paid well, but line supervisors, shopkeeping, and all that other stuff (like collecting tickets) is a huge waste of money.
The LIRR wastes even more $$ than LI Bus, but its not targeted because the upper echelon rides it. Why do trains even need so many conductors?
Why cant the LIRR have its fare control automated?
They could also use a POP system with roving inspectors. No ticket, huge fine. Similar to HBLR in NJ.
The bottom line is service cant be cut, fares cant be raised that much more. What has to give is the waste, not the muscle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pequaman
Inconsistency? really? I'm sorry if my viewing of LIBus as a separate money-losing entity under Nassau County ownership caused any confusion. We obviously don't think alike (refer to the GM-Saturn-Olds relationship).
My facts are correct. You should double-check yours and not simply look at a pie chart as your false premise that Nassau only pays 10%. What about the giant 54% in dedicated taxes that Nassau county pays towards LIBS in the form of the Transportation District Tax (MCTD) and the Personal Mobility Tax (PMT)? What about the exorbitant pensions, benefits and free health care for life that Nassau County is going to be forever burdened with?? If you add in the above, Nassau's contribution toward LIBS likely goes well above 33% and probably closer to 50%. You probably should have actually read this first > http://www.nassaucountyny.gov/agenci...StudyFINAL.pdf before making 3 posts of irrelevant, incorrect information.
Now, as seanx4 pointed out on page 2 with his excellent due diligence: the SALARY WAGE & BENEFITS component taking up a MASSIVE 80% of libs budget, is the major beef that Nassau County has with MTA. I am sure the MTA needs libus much more than Nassau county does! I hope we nix it to reduce the size and power of these giant vampire squid unions. Either that or raise fares to reduce the county's burden and distribute fliers to every single rider to show them why we need to raise fares. See..Libus is more than appears to be on surface. It's a fine example of how unions throw the blame at everyone else except themselves. They blame Mangano, taxpayers and nassau county.... and riders believe it!! Again this is a major reason NY is in shambles, everybody fighting against each other when the problem is fairly obvious.
Here's a look at some public information of Metropolitan Transportation Authority's Long Island Bus SALARY component. This is a rough copy/paste of the top 100 salaries out of 1200 total. The salary next to "Annual" is followed by YTD salary which includes Overtime. Names are left out of course but again this is public information. (Note the lines in RED are instances where OT exceeded 50% of base salary).. Remember, with each of these salaries is a giant pension burden to the county, so double what you see here to get an idea of the redundancy, waste and actual deficit footprint it leaves on us):
The excessive waste runs about 30 pages deep (almost half of the employees!) .. Am I picking on LIBus employees? No, I am picking on the unions for allowing it to be run like a free-for-all and for looting of taxpayers. Storekeepers pulling in $105k G's -- 2x their base salaries via OT abuse?? C'mon man, who's really to blame here? The MTA is. Kudos to sean sean sean for his excellent research and I'm going to quote his work below.. because he really nailed it on the head and made a great comparison via a better run Hamptons road transit vs the poorly run, wasteful & bloated MTA Long Island BUS: (from this post here)
Some positions do require the safety of 40 passengers as JIW stated and some are so simple that technology or streamlining operations could replace them. But the safety of 40 passengers is not valid.. does that mean we should go out and pay roller coaster operators at any amusement park a $Quarter million DOLLARS a year?/ $100K+OT+Benefits+Lucrative Pension+free health care for life and retirement in 20 years (a $100k union salary is effectively $250k/yr salary). Again, this is nothing personal against LIBS. But the problem is, this abuse is rampant across all other government agencies . And the unions are the main enablers in the abuse because it helps them to grow in size and power.
Drop the busses or make the fares cover the costs of operation. Buses are hardly used, most buses I see have 1-3 people on them.
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wtf 2x base
. And the unions are the main enablers in the abuse because it helps them to grow in size and power.
