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What a lot of the pro-urban folks seem to forget is that Williamsburg and Greenpoint were at their bottom in the 70's and 80's, and except for Giondas had waterfronts that were mostly abondoned and dangerous and mostly forgotten by the city planners and most everyone else who didn't live there. Those areas were made safe for the young hipsters that now roam Kent and hang out at Brooklyn Bowl by the artists and fashion people chased out of Hell's Kitchen and the Village, a wave of Polish immigrants, people who worked at restoring the brownstones and natives who held on and kept those places living. They were almost blank slates which Long Island isn't.
Long Island is not Brooklyn or Long Island City. It doesn't have dead spots with great city views. Any issues that Long Island may have need to be addressed with fresh thinking but not urbanization.
LI has too much of the NYC's costs and not enough discount to live further out. Gas prices are high, food and living expenses even higher than parts of NYC. The property taxes are outrageous at some locations even out-pricing NJ. LIRR cost as much as some further out NJ towns.
The traffic can be hair-pulling frustrating to angry that nothing has been done to ease congestion.
How about the times when Sandy hits that it took some towns over 3-4 weeks to get power restored.
But young people turn into not so young people and may find hanging out in Williamsburg and Greenpoint on the waterfront lacking after a while. And given the price of an old frame fixer upper is out of their reach. It happened before when all those young city folks headed east in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Being young and enjoying hitting Brooklyn Bowl doesn't mean you will find Urban life satifying when you have kids.
What a lot of the pro-urban folks seem to forget is that Williamsburg and Greenpoint were at their bottom in the 70's and 80's, and except for Giondas had waterfronts that were mostly abondoned and dangerous and mostly forgotten by the city planners and most everyone else who didn't live there.
These places are also 10-15 minutes by ferry to downtown/fidi and midtown, as are Astoria, Newport, Hoboken, and Red Hook. It was only a matter of time before developers saw the potential and worked their way through the rezoning process. Then there was the redevelopment of Industry City and DUMBO into arts/design/media hubs. It's not that people are attracted to Williamsburg because of the vibe. They were attracted because of proximity to the jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkStreetKid
Being young and enjoying hitting Brooklyn Bowl doesn't mean you will find Urban life satifying when you have kids.
They won't find unemployment/underemployment satisfying when they have kids either. Then it becomes a question of whether they want to commute for 15-30 minutes or 1+ hours. No doubt a lot of those Park Slope/Kensington/Cobble Hill parents would wish they had more living space but how many today would trade it for a longer commute?
Last edited by Forest_Hills_Daddy; 02-23-2015 at 04:30 AM..
These places are also 10-15 minutes by ferry to downtown/fidi and midtown, as are Astoria, Newport, Hoboken, and Red Hook. It was only a matter of time before developers saw the potential and worked their way through the rezoning process. Then there was the redevelopment of Industry City and DUMBO into arts/design/media hubs. It's not that people are attracted to Williamsburg because of the vibe. They were attracted because of proximity to the jobs.
For some. A number of those people had lived in Manhattan before moving to Brooklyn and Queens after prices went up there. It wasn't just vibe (as there wasn't any at first), or jobs (they had those already) but affordable living by their jobs, or affordable space for their studios.
And start scrapping the arts and design portions of that hub as the rents have skyrocketed and the artists are on the move again. For the most part the artists and young moved to Brooklyn long before the developers saw the place as a good investment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest_Hills_Daddy
They won't find unemployment/underemployment satisfying when they have kids either. Then it becomes a question of whether they want to commute for 15-30 minutes or 1+ hours. No doubt a lot of those Park Slope/Kensington/Cobble Hill parents would wish they had more living space but how many today would trade it for a longer commute?
In the past quite a few. My father was NYPD and moved from Greenpoint to Babylon and made the commute as did a large number of my neighbors. People will do a 60 minute commute without much problem. Some people will want more than a cramped apartment, or choice number two a 25 X 65 three story 100 year old frame house for around 2M. At that point for the average Joe Long Island and a commute starts looking a lot better.
Long Island's problem isn't that it needs to be urbanized, though some nice apartment complexes sprinkled around Nassau and Suffolk would be nice, but that it's over crowded with inadequate transportation to get people to the jobs in NYC.
Palo Alto is within Silicon Valley and houses industries that are still thriving. Bethesda is the HQ of aerospace and defense companies - it is the HQ of Lockheed Martin. These are companies that until recently have been immune to recessions and shifts in consumer behavior. The industries that once dotted NYC's outer ring have been battered by aggressive competition, obsolescence and changes in consumer tastes - all happening at the same time. It's going to be uphill trying to put out so many fires burning simultaneously let alone turn things around. NYC had to move mountains just to start Cornell-Technion and drive its tech/startup ambitions as a jutaxposition to it's already dominant finance and media industries. What was there in LI and other NYC suburbs to build on when the NY corporates started to unravel and restructure?
At one time LI was a center for aerospace and defense. Now that work and good paying jobs it provided are gone to CA, MD, FL, etc. The US is sending probes to Mars, but not designed and built on LI.
My gut feeling is that LI began sliding downhill right after aerospace manufacturing departed.
At one time LI was a center for aerospace and defense. Now that work and good paying jobs it provided are gone to CA, MD, FL, etc. The US is sending probes to Mars, but not designed and built on LI.
My gut feeling is that LI began sliding downhill right after aerospace manufacturing departed.
That pretty much was the end of major manufacturing on Long Island, which even before aerospace left wasn't a great place to produce goods to ship to the mainland.
Seems very sad but very true. I grew up on Long Island and now live in NYC. Every other weekend when going back to visit family I see how happy I am now that I am no longer living on LI. I genuinely wish that LI can resolve these problems as I may want to move back someday but the way it is going is downhill unfortunately.
The last time I looked, manufacturing jobs everywhere are disappearing, not just on LI, primarily because of automation: 1 or 2 workers and modern machinery can produce as much or more product than 10+ workers produced 50 years ago. Off shorting adds to the problem as what low skill jobs don't get automated get shipped to some place where people will work for pennies an hour.
The last time I looked, manufacturing jobs everywhere are disappearing, not just on LI, primarily because of automation: 1 or 2 workers and modern machinery can produce as much or more product than 10+ workers produced 50 years ago. Off shorting adds to the problem as what low skill jobs don't get automated get shipped to some place where people will work for pennies an hour.
That is why the loss of aerospace and defense hurt LI so much. They were not humdrum manufacturing jobs like making can openers or car engines that can be highly automated. They require both professional engineers and highly skilled, well paid production workers that can't off-shored. Add to that all the support staff from executive assistants to purchasing agents, IT and truck drivers and it was a big loss.
I have several friends in the those industries who left LI but are doing very well in other locations (not NY). They won't be back.
Don't put the cart before the horse, we need (good) jobs first , the housing in whatever form will follow.
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