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What a hornets nest I shook up. This was my first posting on this board - - although I have been an avid reader for many many months.
I have to tell you, I expected some of this "dishonest" flak to come my way because a number of Real Estate professionals (working and retired) obviously troll on this board.
Have some of you people house-hunted in the INTERNET AGE? Have some of you house-hunted since the BUBBLE STARTED TO BURST????? It appears NOT.
You ask how I am privy to contract listing expirations? Am I setting all of you up??? You my friend who mentioned that are a TOTAL FOOL. I can not tell you how many Open Houses and standard drop-ins where THE ACTUAL BROKER LISTING PAGES have been given to me over the past year showing me:
A) DATE OF CONTRACT EXPIRATION
B) ORIGINAL LISTING PRICE
C) OWNERS LAST NAME!!!!
D) Do a google search, check mynassauproperty.com and Property Shark and VOILA: owners name, address, phone #, original sale price, additions to house, etc etc etc etc and ETC.
PEOPLE: this stuff IS NOT A SECRET...it is information readily given out by THE LISTING AGENT or MY AGENT.
And Mr. Moser: I know you are a very well respected REA on this board - - all the power to you. However, you should be ashamed of yourself implying that a potential buyer like me is unethical and dishonest - - in your industry, you cant walk without tripping over one or two of them every minute of the day....sorry to inform you of that sir.
I would agree with you if the buyer happened to find out down the road that the listing had expired (for example, if he saw later a For Sale By Owner sign), but to deliberately wait and then contact the seller is a different matter. To me that is purposely using someone who is dealing with you in good faith. Oh, well, different people have different standards. I know some people who will go out of their way to make sure that you are fairly compensated. I know others who will throw you over to save a nickel.
Or better yet: "Throw you over to make their commission"...what a joke....
Most listing contracts have a clause that covers this issue. The seller may still be required to pay a commission. All my listing agreements require the seller to pay a commission if they sell a home to someone who was shown the house by an agent for a period of 180 following the showing, whether or not the listing has expired. This non-circumvent clause is intended to address exactly what you are trying to do.
By the way, your intended action is highly unethical in my opinion.
Thats how I always remember it also..........these contracts have a period of time that a commission still goes to the agent who showed you a home within this timeperiod after the contract ends..........I know this is in NJ and PA..........It covers the agent from having shown a home to someone and having them come back just after the expire to then make a deal.............That homeowner would still have to pay the commission, so I hope they are aware........( In most states)
by the way, how do YOU know when the listing expires? Most customers are not privvy to that information. Have you already talked to the homeowners and asked them? Is this a set-up?
No...the Real Estate Agent and Listing agent were very very happy to provide us with the Broker Listing Sheet upon Entry...you know, I think it lists the following:
1) Contract Expiration date
2) Original listing price to show you how desperate - - or not - - the seller is to make a deal
3) The owners last name (by the way, that seems quite illegal to provide buyers with the potential nationality/religion of the current owner)
4) The Commission Structure between the various agents
5) NOTES ON: SELL THIS BY A CERTAIN DATE AND YOU WILL GET XXX BONUS.......
6) If it is Short Sale
7) Pre- Forclosure
It is precisely the type of Real Estate Agent you must be that have driven millions to the FOR SALE BY OWNER approach..........
Seems like every buyer and seller knows ALOT more than you do.....how do you even JUSTIFY a COMMISSION I would like to know???????
This has been a very interesting discussion. I recently looked at a house and I was told that the owner wanted to sell before her contract expired next week (co-owner wanted to take it off market if it didn't sell). I wasn't ready to commit to the house - we wanted to keep looking.
A friend mentioned to me that if I changed my mind after the contract expired that I could probably still call the RE agent or owner and make an offer. I figured that there would be some kind of clause in the contract to cover such things.
Ultimately we decided against the house and I believe that the owner did get another offer, but if we had decided to make an offer on the house down the line it wouldn't be in order to cut the RE agent out of their commission. I think that is really unfair to the agents who worked so hard - both mine and the listing agent. After all, I saw the house both at an open house and a second time with an appointment. Isn't that why agents have you sign in at an open house - so that you can't make underhanded deals?
Real Estate agents spend alot of time and energy on clients that may not even buy a house when all is said and done. I certainly wouldn't feel good about deliberately trying to screw someone out of their commission - especially since as the buyer its not really me who's paying them.
PEOPLE: this stuff IS NOT A SECRET...it is information readily given out by THE LISTING AGENT or MY AGENT.
And Mr. Moser: I know you are a very well respected REA on this board - - all the power to you. However, you should be ashamed of yourself implying that a potential buyer like me is unethical and dishonest - - in your industry, you cant walk without tripping over one or two of them every minute of the day....sorry to inform you of that sir.
This is, in fact, the information age. Consumers are privy to a lot of information. I believe that is a good thing, as it helps them make informed decisions. Where I draw the line is with people like you who use that information to take the food out of the mouths of the children of honest, hardworking people. I don't know what line of business you are in, but I am sure that you have certain expectations about how your customers will ethically interact with you. When you spend time, energy, and money helping someone to find the item that they are looking to purchase there is an epectation that they will honor that relationship. You seem to feel that it is ok to let someone exhaust these resources on you so that you can glean the information that you need in order to do an end-run around them.
Yes, there are dishonest and unethical people in my business. Aparently there are in yours, too. Should you ever walk into my office, please identify yourself so that I can warn my agents about you.
This is, in fact, the information age. Consumers are privy to a lot of information. I believe that is a good thing, as it helps them make informed decisions. Where I draw the line is with people like you who use that information to take the food out of the mouths of the children of honest, hardworking people. I don't know what line of business you are in, but I am sure that you have certain expectations about how your customers will ethically interact with you. When you spend time, energy, and money helping someone to find the item that they are looking to purchase there is an epectation that they will honor that relationship. You seem to feel that it is ok to let someone exhaust these resources on you so that you can glean the information that you need in order to do an end-run around them.
Yes, there are dishonest and unethical people in my business. Aparently there are in yours, too. Should you ever walk into my office, please identify yourself so that I can warn my agents about you.
Oh jeez......this is getting too funny.....
"Take the food out of the mouths of the children of honest, hardworking people"...oh Mr. Moser, please...stop the violins... I cant keep from doubling over laughing here...... soda is coming out of my nose!
Yes...I guess what you say is TRUE: We buyers have tears in our eyes EVERYTIME we have to follow our "hardworking, middle class realtor" driving their Black Beauty Mercedes Benz (w/GPS and tinted window extras package) or their 2007 Lexus 4 door (silver metallic with corinthian leather heated seats) to the next OVERPRICED and DISGUSTING $750K+ house on the South Shore of Nassau with 1.5 BATHS no less. And then the GAUL to hear them tell us that the house we are admiring may be too ambitious for us because our price range for a new home is "quite a bit lower" than the list price of the POS (piece of S##T) they are showing us - - POS's with NOT ONE SINGLE improvement done to many of these homes since Nixon was in office.....PRICED TO SIT.
No wonder why inventory is at its all time high....perhaps there are fewer buyers getting sucked into the usual Realtor nonsense this time around. PRICED TO SIT.
By the way - - have any of "your agents" in "your office" done the following to fool or otherwise mis-represent a home to a buyer? Because quite frankly, my experience lately has shown that on Long Island, this is the norm....not an abberation...and in fact these tactics have also been verified in the press and internet recently.
To all the Realtors who responded to my "perceived" unethical makeup, take a looky-loo here incase you may not be too familiar with the unethical tactics likely occuring (behind your back?) in your local Real Estate office:
1) Photoshoped and/or retouched MLS photos in order to fix the paint jobs, edit out public utility wiring, add foliage to enhance the exterior photos?
2) Used wide-angle lenses or used Photoshop in order to enhance the frontage of a property far beyond its actual proportions?
3) Actually lied to customers about the recent occupancy/vacancy history of the house?
4) Refused to accept from a buyer that a roof was caving in when it was so obvious a two year old could see it?
5) Written such lofty descriptive prose in its MLS narrative - - which when verified using google earth or other sites - - proved that the prose was in fact "quite lofty"
6) Time and Time and Time again claim there are "multiple standing verbal offers" on a house in order to apply pressure to you/your family for a quick offer/decision which increases the odds that you will act "emotionally" likely resulting in an offer well above market value for the house (of course they dont tell you that the "offers" they claim they may have received are likely fair and appropriate offers based on sound fundamentals....in "Realtor language" called a LOW BALL
I could go on and on about these "Realtor Ethics" that apparently are the norm in your field (and quite possibly your office) which we buyers are witnessing time and time again on Long Island and elsewhere.
Last edited by hurrahs80; 07-22-2008 at 07:47 PM..
The information sheets you were given are supposed to be confidential! Another version, which leaves out everything you stated, is available for customers--exactly for privacy/confidentiality reasons. Any Realtor representing the Seller who distributes the broker version to non-brokers is either ignorant or careless; either way, s/he is unprofessional.
However, if you are working with a Buyer Broker (a Realtor whom you hire to specifically represent YOU, the Buyer), then said Buyer Broker can share whatever information s/he discovers during research in order to better negotiate on your behalf. You on the other hand owe the Buyer Broker a commission, either via the seller, or directly, as stated in the "employment contract".
BTW, with regard to the commission comment (#4), the listing sheet only shows what the selling broker(s) get; the listing broker's commission is never revealed to anyone other than their owner/manager, i.e. if the seller pays a 5% commission and 2% go to the selling side, the selling side has no idea how much the listing side gets, whether it's another 2%, 2 1/2%, 3% or whatever. It's an individually negotiated rate between the seller and the Realtor. (Above numbers are for illustrative purposes only!)
That's it for now
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurrahs80
No...the Real Estate Agent and Listing agent were very very happy to provide us with the Broker Listing Sheet upon Entry...you know, I think it lists the following:
1) Contract Expiration date
2) Original listing price to show you how desperate - - or not - - the seller is to make a deal
3) The owners last name (by the way, that seems quite illegal to provide buyers with the potential nationality/religion of the current owner)
4) The Commission Structure between the various agents
5) NOTES ON: SELL THIS BY A CERTAIN DATE AND YOU WILL GET XXX BONUS.......
6) If it is Short Sale
7) Pre- Forclosure
It is precisely the type of Real Estate Agent you must be that have driven millions to the FOR SALE BY OWNER approach..........
Seems like every buyer and seller knows ALOT more than you do.....how do you even JUSTIFY a COMMISSION I would like to know???????
The information sheets you were given are supposed to be confidential! Another version, which leaves out everything you stated, is available for customers--exactly for privacy/confidentiality reasons. Any Realtor representing the Seller who distributes the broker version to non-brokers is either ignorant or careless; either way, s/he is unprofessional.
However, if you are working with a Buyer Broker (a Realtor whom you hire to specifically represent YOU, the Buyer), then said Buyer Broker can share whatever information s/he discovers during research in order to better negotiate on your behalf. You on the other hand owe the Buyer Broker a commission, either via the seller, or directly, as stated in the "employment contract".
BTW, with regard to the commission comment (#4), the listing sheet only shows what the selling broker(s) get; the listing broker's commission is never revealed to anyone other than their owner/manager, i.e. if the seller pays a 5% commission and 2% go to the selling side, the selling side has no idea how much the listing side gets, whether it's another 2%, 2 1/2%, 3% or whatever. It's an individually negotiated rate between the seller and the Realtor. (Above numbers are for illustrative purposes only!)
That's it for now
Well then, it confirms that there are A LOT of ignorant, unprofessional and careless real estate professionals out there on LI. And of course may I even add "unethical" as well
I could wallpaper my Apt 5x over with the amount of broker sheets I have - - just from this year. As a matter of fact, if a realtor sends me a non-broker sheet now, I tell her if she is interested in showing me the house I want to see the broker sheet since I get them 90% of the time at open houses or from the listing agents.
Lots of commission-given #'s on these sheets - - I generally dont care since as a buyer I dont pay it!!!! (although the knowledge of it ultimately effects response to my offer)........Maybe the Realtors on this Board dont understand that concept yet....
Last edited by hurrahs80; 07-22-2008 at 07:50 PM..
When you spend time, energy, and money helping someone to find the item that they are looking to purchase there is an epectation that they will honor that relationship.
If the OP had a buyer-agency relationship with the agent who showed him the house, I would agree with that statement. But he does not. He clearly stated that the house was shown to him by the SELLER'S AGENT.
Seller's agents, or seller's subagents (in other words ANY agent with whom the potential buyer has not entered into a buyer agency contract... Mr. Moser, you know this perfectly well) DO NOT HAVE a "relationship" (fiduciary, contractual, or otherwise) with a potential buyer.
The whole reason behind the switch away from seller subagency to buyer representation on Long Island that started in January 2007 was BECAUSE too many potential buyers were unaware that the nice realtor who was "spend(ing) time, money and energy helping them to find the (house) they are looking for" was NOT representing them, and was NOT looking our for their best interests, but was in fact acting in the best interests of the SELLER. Sorry but you can't have it both ways (unless there's dual agency which is another horror in itself).
As a buyer, we would never dream of doing anything to short our buyer agent (who HAS spent time, money etc etc on truly helping us) out of one single cent of her commission. As sellers, we feel the same about our listing agent. But do we EVER believe for one second that the other party's agent is EVER doing anything to "help" us? NOT FOR ONE SECOND, because frankly, we are not fools. A real estate transaction is essentially an adversarial relationship, whether any realtor wants to admit it or not. The seller wants to get the most money he can, and the buyer wants to pay the least that he can. Hopefully both sides have agents that are reasonable enough to facilitate a compromise in order to get something sold. But don't ever kid yourself that the other side's realtor is "Helping" you. That, to be blunt, is bull****. You should just as soon expect a plaintiff's attorney to "help" the defendant in a lawsuit.
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