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Look, I love Louisville. Great city. Great people. But, let's be honest....from an outsider's point of view...it really is a tough city to break into, socially and professionally. The people are VERY cliquish. Very much concerned with where you went to highschool (this is completely insane from an outsider's point of view...surely you have to understand this), where you live in town (not unusual), and where you go to church (blech). It's a very progressive/funky town, for the most part...but it takes a while to get accustomed to. I can say that I finally feel at home, and don't plan on moving anytime soon.
I've lived ALL over. Military brat...born overseas...family is in Europe..bla bla. People here need to STOP being delusional and recognize that people from outside of our small circle see our state, specifically the rural areas, as an insane hillbilly freakfest. If I take my friend from NYC south on 65, get about 30 minutes outside of the city...pull off on any exit, he's going to either be scared out of his mind or laugh for hours on end. The people really are that "bad" in parts. I'm not being a snob here (my wife is from a town of 900 in western KY, so I've been deep in that world for going on 15 years now)...just trying to shed light on where some of this sentiment comes from.
Let's look at the facts... people in rural KY aren't very well educated, have horrible weight problems, and have the worst dental care in the country. So we have illiterate, fat, and no teeth. Every element of the stereotypical "hillbilly" equation!! So, when somebody points out the "white trash" that is in parts of rural KY, why not say "Yeah, we got some REALY doozies in this state. But, we're not all like that. Just ignore them and enjoy your stay in Louisville." Instead, people get all delusional about the state and try to paint it as the paradise that it isn't.
I'll give you an example of how other states handle similar situations. Outside of NYC you have Long Island. Long Island is a notorious white trash haven. PARTS of LI are great. Very affluent areas with huge homes, great restaurants, etc. But other parts, like Mastic, are complete dumps. Thing is, if you ask any Long Islander what they think of Mastic, they'll tell you in 2 seconds that the place is a dump and that the people are insane. Totally different mindset than that of Kentucky. As an amateur anthropologist... it's actually very interesting.
I'm reminded of the blog somebody posted not long ago...where the guy from Oregon was driving through KY, gave the state a glowing review, didn't understand the stereotypes...until he stopped at a small gas station and told the lady he was from Oregon. She proudly claimed that she never heard of it, and couldn't find it on a map. THAT is rural Kentucky.... and a problem that we REALLY REALLY need to recognize.
Look, I love Louisville. Great city. Great people. But, let's be honest....from an outsider's point of view...it really is a tough city to break into, socially and professionally. The people are VERY cliquish. Very much concerned with where you went to highschool (this is completely insane from an outsider's point of view...surely you have to understand this), where you live in town (not unusual), and where you go to church (blech). It's a very progressive/funky town, for the most part...but it takes a while to get accustomed to. I can say that I finally feel at home, and don't plan on moving anytime soon.
I've lived ALL over. Military brat...born overseas...family is in Europe..bla bla. People here need to STOP being delusional and recognize that people from outside of our small circle see our state, specifically the rural areas, as an insane hillbilly freakfest. If I take my friend from NYC south on 65, get about 30 minutes outside of the city...pull off on any exit, he's going to either be scared out of his mind or laugh for hours on end. The people really are that "bad" in parts. I'm not being a snob here (my wife is from a town of 900 in western KY, so I've been deep in that world for going on 15 years now)...just trying to shed light on where some of this sentiment comes from.
Let's look at the facts... people in rural KY aren't very well educated, have horrible weight problems, and have the worst dental care in the country. So we have illiterate, fat, and no teeth. Every element of the stereotypical "hillbilly" equation!! So, when somebody points out the "white trash" that is in parts of rural KY, why not say "Yeah, we got some REALY doozies in this state. But, we're not all like that. Just ignore them and enjoy your stay in Louisville." Instead, people get all delusional about the state and try to paint it as the paradise that it isn't.
I'll give you an example of how other states handle similar situations. Outside of NYC you have Long Island. Long Island is a notorious white trash haven. PARTS of LI are great. Very affluent areas with huge homes, great restaurants, etc. But other parts, like Mastic, are complete dumps. Thing is, if you ask any Long Islander what they think of Mastic, they'll tell you in 2 seconds that the place is a dump and that the people are insane. Totally different mindset than that of Kentucky. As an amateur anthropologist... it's actually very interesting.
I'm reminded of the blog somebody posted not long ago...where the guy from Oregon was driving through KY, gave the state a glowing review, didn't understand the stereotypes...until he stopped at a small gas station and told the lady he was from Oregon. She proudly claimed that she never heard of it, and couldn't find it on a map. THAT is rural Kentucky.... and a problem that we REALLY REALLY need to recognize.
LOL..so I'm supposed to nod and play nice when someone calls us white trash? I don't think that's an option, and I think tomocox said it best..this sort of attitude is reflective of an upward nose. As for the insane hillbilly freakfest...I know that a few of our northern friends like to put us down, but they don't mind spending some time at Laurel Lake or Lake Cumberland. Just as you guys have stated your opinions and preferences, mine would be rural KY anytime over the urban sprawl of the northeast or Great Lakes.
I'm always fascinated by the "Where did you go to high school?" question. I remember a few years ago, when I still lived in Rochester NY, I went to a bar to see the Louisville band Shipping News perform. I introduced myself to Jason Noble as a native Louisvillian and then asked, "Where did you guys go to high school?" I had lived in Rochester for more than 30 years, but the old Louisville question seemed appropriate... I didn't know until I moved back that it was a Louisville question. It's a useful conversation starter, a locater, a bearing-setter. I always want to ask people who complain about it what response they get when they say, "I'm not from here." Do Louisvillians cut off the conversation? Do they laugh and leave? Do they sneer? Is conversation and friendship then impossible? I doubt it - as someone who has lived almost half his life here, and more than half elsewhere. I bet Louisvillians then find another way to connect - which is what they were trying to do when they asked the high-school question in the first place.
And what, by the way, is a proper opening question? What do you do for a living? Where did you go to college? What's your politics? What Lost character are you most like? Dunno... high school seems innocuous. It may be a bit off-putting if you have to say it's not the right question for you, but, hey, you can get over it...
As for insisting people in Louisville have to write off their rural cousins, I have to call 'foul' - because for me and for many here, those poor, unemployed, under-educated folks are kin. My father was from Trottin' Ridge KY, up the road from Irvine in Estill County. Irvine is, interestingly, the home of actor Harry Dean Stanton, star of, among many other films, Paris, Texas. It is also the home of one of the Backstreet Boys. One of the reasons we don't just write off as trash such places and such people is that there are such flares of beauty and creativity, such hard-scrabble, thin-soil intelligence. Yes, it makes for some ugliness, too... just as poverty and homelessness in NYC does, too. And any New Yorker will come shrieking to the defense of its ugliness. New Yorkers (and, darn it, I have the right to say this) are bigots once they leave their comfort zone. You know that New Yorker cartoon map of Manhattan that shows everything in the rest of the country a vague nothingness? New Yorkers feel that attitude is part of their sophistication. Imagine the cover of The Oxford Review showing a map of Mississippi with everything beyond as nothing: there would be laughter at the bigotry, chauvinism, littleness of those crackers.
What is the difference?
The creativity and personality of backwoods Kentucky informs the mood, the openness, the independence, the stubborn oddness of Louisville, and we know it - though sometimes only subliminally - for our conscious minds are often uncomfortable with and embarrassed by our country cousins. It's hard to defend them sometimes, just it is hard for middle-class African-Americans to defend the ghetto, or Italians to defend the Mafia... but they are, darn it, family, and we aren't going to join people from other places in hating them, or writing them off, or, as is being suggested by rbryant, ignoring them, giving up on them, dehumanizing them.
Last edited by louroclou; 03-01-2008 at 01:00 PM..
I'm always fascinated by the "Where did you go to high school?" question. I remember a few years ago, when I still lived in Rochester NY, I went to a bar to see the Louisville band Shipping News perform. I introduced myself to Jason Noble as a native Louisvillian and then asked, "Where did you guys go to high school?" I had lived in Rochester for more than 30 years, but the old Louisville question seemed appropriate... I didn't know until I moved back that it was a Louisville question. It's a useful conversation starter, a locater, a bearing-setter. I always want to ask people who complain about it what response they get when they say, "I'm not from here." Do Louisvillians cut off the conversation? Do they laugh and leave? Do they sneer? Is conversation and friendship then impossible? I doubt it - as someone who has lived almost half his life here, and more than half elsewhere. I bet Louisvillians then find another way to connect - which is what they were trying to do when they asked the high-school question in the first place.
And what, by the way, is a proper opening question? What do you do for a living? Where did you go to college? What's your politics? What Lost character are you most like? Dunno... high school seems innocuous. It may be a bit off-putting if you have to say it's not the right question for you, but, hey, you can get over it...
As for insisting people in Louisville have to write off their rural cousins, I have to call 'foul' - because for me and for many here, those poor, unemployed, under-educated folks are kin. My father was from Trottin' Ridge KY, up the road from Irvine in Estill County. Irvine is, interestingly, the home of actor Harry Dean Stanton, star of, among many other films, Paris, Texas. It is also the home of one of the Backstreet Boys. One of the reasons we don't just write off as trash such places and such people is that there are such flares of beauty and creativity, such hard-scrabble, thin-soil intelligence. Yes, it makes for some ugliness, too... just as poverty and homelessness in NYC does, too. And any New Yorker will come shrieking to the defense of its ugliness. New Yorkers (and, darn it, I have the right to say this) are bigots once they leave their comfort zone. You know that New Yorker cartoon map of Manhattan that shows everything in the rest of the country a vague nothingness? New Yorkers feel that attitude is part of their sophistication. Imagine the cover of The Oxford Review showing a map of Mississippi with everything beyond as nothing: there would be laughter at the bigotry, chauvinism, littleness of those crackers.
What is the difference?
The creativity and personality of backwoods Kentucky informs the mood, the openness, the independence, the stubborn oddness of Louisville, and we know it - though sometimes only subliminally - for our conscious minds are often uncomfortable with and embarrassed by our country cousins. It's hard to defend them sometimes, just it is hard for middle-class African-Americans to defend the ghetto, or Italians to defend the Mafia... but they are, darn it, family, and we aren't going to join people from other places in hating them, or writing them off, or, as is being suggested by rbryant, ignoring them and giving up on them.
VERY VERY good post. I am not a native Louisvillian and I find the opinions of Dowdy and RNC to be way off...I immediately saw the question of where you went to HS in a different light. To me, it was Louisvillians trying to connect with me. It was actually their personal attempt to get to know me better or something about me. I certainly do not have a problem with that, and it is sure better than the people in Chicago who turn their nose and walk away from you when you even say hi. I leave you with two quotes, which I may add to the intro photo sticky, since I believe them to be so representative of the city
"If I could think of a way to do it right now, I'd head back to Louisville, sit on the porch drinking beer, drive around Cherokee Park for a few nights, and try to sink back as far as I could into the world that did its best to make me. It's not hard to get tired of interminable palms and poinciana, and I could do at the moment with a single elm tree on a midnight street in the Highlands."--Hunter S. Thompson
My Morning Jacket hail from the city of Louisville, Kentucky, an odd metro-suburban mix of stark industry and fine thoroughbreds and rock and roll fevers. "It's a place with no labels," James says. "It's not the South, it's not Chicago, and you don't think of it as you think of New York or LA. It has some Southern romanticism to it, but also a Northern progressivism, this weird urban island in the middle of the state of Kentucky that has always provided a fertile, often dark, bed. For us, Louisville and the surrounding areas are the center of massive creativity and massive weirdness. The place has its flaws: You move away, but you're always going to come back."
I find that the highschool question, FOR SOME, to be more of a "class" barometer. If you say "St. X" or "Trinity", you're immediately put on a different level (at least in business circles that create my friend network). One of my clients gave me a 30 minute speech on the "St. X Mafia", which is comprised of well-to-do executive types in town...all who attended St. X. They all looked out for each other... very fraternal. He never once cracked a smile...I thought he was kidding. He wasn't.
After re-reading my post, it was very negative (so I don't want to hear another "WHY SO ANGRY" post, TOMOCOX!). I guess what I'm trying to get across is.... we know there are issues with a large portion of of rural KY (literacy, education, etc). So, when people point out the obvious, why are we so quick to defend.... to the point of ignoring reality? I guess the excuse of "Yeah, we have major problems...but they're family" works.
Food for thought: Is the attitude of acceptance a major contributor to the "one step behind" image (reality?) that KY has? What if Louisville severed ties with rural KY and focused solely on more liberal/progressive ideals? I know many would argue that's already taking place. Not enough in this yankee's opinion :-)
Food for thought: Is the attitude of acceptance a major contributor to the "one step behind" image (reality?) that KY has? What if Louisville severed ties with rural KY and focused solely on more liberal/progressive ideals? I know many would argue that's already taking place. Not enough in this yankee's opinion :-)
Toleration of corruption is the biggest impediment to Kentucky's progression. Before the Courier-Journal became part of the McPaper empire, it focused relentlessly on the problems of rural Kentucky for that reason. Now Louisville's media is almost completely disengaged from the rest of the state, and its citizens have little idea down which rathole a majority of their state tax money is going.
Frank, you finally hit on something I totally agree with you about. The Bingham C-J was consistantly rated as one of the top 3 newspapers of America. Ga"nut" has totally destroyed any and all faith reasoning well-informed people might have in the Courier-Journal.
Ya know, I'll take the "white trash" who waved at us going down Dixie south of e-Town without knoing us from Adam than the snobby looking down their nose people that some of "higher education" are.
Food for thought: Is the attitude of acceptance a major contributor to the "one step behind" image (reality?) that KY has?
I wonder: wouldn't an attitude of acceptance of the other, whoever that other is, as long as they're hurting no one, actually be a progressive thing in this world?
I, too, have some of these family members in WV--talk about hillbillies! The stereotypes grow out of some truth. But they don't get the whole truth about how these same "backward" people would go out of their way to see to it that you were welcome and fed even if it meant they missed a few meals that week as a result. They'd entertain you with rollicking good stories and perhaps a song or two and little kids dancing with the older folks. These are life's little joys that I, in my more progressive enlightened world, have little time for these days, leaving me to wonder who's more civilized.
Look, I love Louisville. Great city. Great people. But, let's be honest....from an outsider's point of view...it really is a tough city to break into, socially and professionally. The people are VERY cliquish. Very much concerned with where you went to highschool (this is completely insane from an outsider's point of view...surely you have to understand this), where you live in town (not unusual), and where you go to church (blech). It's a very progressive/funky town, for the most part...but it takes a while to get accustomed to. I can say that I finally feel at home, and don't plan on moving anytime soon.
I've lived ALL over. Military brat...born overseas...family is in Europe..bla bla. People here need to STOP being delusional and recognize that people from outside of our small circle see our state, specifically the rural areas, as an insane hillbilly freakfest. If I take my friend from NYC south on 65, get about 30 minutes outside of the city...pull off on any exit, he's going to either be scared out of his mind or laugh for hours on end. The people really are that "bad" in parts. I'm not being a snob here (my wife is from a town of 900 in western KY, so I've been deep in that world for going on 15 years now)...just trying to shed light on where some of this sentiment comes from.
Let's look at the facts... people in rural KY aren't very well educated, have horrible weight problems, and have the worst dental care in the country. So we have illiterate, fat, and no teeth. Every element of the stereotypical "hillbilly" equation!! So, when somebody points out the "white trash" that is in parts of rural KY, why not say "Yeah, we got some REALY doozies in this state. But, we're not all like that. Just ignore them and enjoy your stay in Louisville." Instead, people get all delusional about the state and try to paint it as the paradise that it isn't.
I'll give you an example of how other states handle similar situations. Outside of NYC you have Long Island. Long Island is a notorious white trash haven. PARTS of LI are great. Very affluent areas with huge homes, great restaurants, etc. But other parts, like Mastic, are complete dumps. Thing is, if you ask any Long Islander what they think of Mastic, they'll tell you in 2 seconds that the place is a dump and that the people are insane. Totally different mindset than that of Kentucky. As an amateur anthropologist... it's actually very interesting.
I'm reminded of the blog somebody posted not long ago...where the guy from Oregon was driving through KY, gave the state a glowing review, didn't understand the stereotypes...until he stopped at a small gas station and told the lady he was from Oregon. She proudly claimed that she never heard of it, and couldn't find it on a map. THAT is rural Kentucky.... and a problem that we REALLY REALLY need to recognize.
Excellent response! The difference too is people up north aren't "afraid" or defensive about calling a spade a spade. Don't be so defensive KY and get over that this is how it is there!!
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