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I have been a long time unregistered lurker around here but have finally given in to making my own thread. I have been searching and searching on this topic for the past 6 months and have read almost every relevant thread on the matter that seems to exist on this site. That said, many of them are older and the thread starters, in many cases, have very different needs and backgrounds than I do so they aren't all pertinent to my situation.
Nutshell of background... I am 31, married with 2 children (5 and almost 2) and work in Linux Administration. I am east coast born and bred and despite the high cost of living in most NE areas, I feel it is the best place in the country to live. I was born in NJ to a mother and father from NY and though we lived in NJ, NYC and Long Island were a huge part of my life growing up. As soon as I was old enough I got my first job in NYC and spent almost all of my time there either working or hanging out. In short, I love NYC to no end and ever since life threw me a curve ball at 21 years old and I moved to Virginia Beach, I have wanted to go back.
My stay in VA was supposed to be temporary, however I grew older and wiser there, met a wonderful woman, got married to her and had 2 children, bought a house, etc, etc... That said, despite having a house and family, it never felt like home and I always wanted to go back to NYC. When it was just my wife and I this wasn't much of an issue since we didn't have to think about schools, could both work full time and wouldn't have a problem living in a 3k a month shoebox to be in a good neighborhood. Once my son was born I knew I was going to have to re-evaluate my plans, and then when my wife got pregnant with my second son, well, I almost gave up on my dream of returning home. So much so that I took a new job in "wonderful" Austin TX thinking it would give me what I wanted.
Ahhhh... Austin... the city everyone seems to love, but nobody can tell me why. I bought the hype and moved out here sight unseen to take a job, fueling it all based on the words of others and the extremely high ratings the city has received making it seem like a "great place" to live. I absolutely, 100%, unequivocally hate it here and simply can't wait to leave. Why, you ask? It is too hot in the summer, I miss seasons, I hate having to drive EVERYWHERE and the traffic caused by horrible city planning, it is too damned brown everywhere, and all the "amazing" outdoor activities everyone talks about just don't do it for me, especially in the summer when it is 105-110 degrees every day. I miss rain, as well. Yes, I miss rain... you wouldn't think you would miss something like rain until you live in a place that goes 2, 3, sometimes 4 months without more than a passing drizzle. Yes, it is "cheap", however rates of pay for my field (Linux Administration) tend to be lower than the country standards, especially in NYC or Boston (area), by a lot. I make enough that my wife doesn't have to work, but we aren't rolling in it.
Alright, now, to the point... I want to go back east. Remember I said that all I ever wanted was to go back to NYC? Well, that is still true, however my kids are the most important thing in the world to me and I will not bring them to a place they may suffer in, or a place that has horrible public schools. There are places like Forest Hills in Queens, Sunnyside in Queens, Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, etc, that are all affordable enough that my wife wouldn't have to work more than part time while the kids are in school and have "good enough" schools by NYC standards that I may not hate myself for sending my kids to them, but they still aren't that great by country standards.
What I want...
1. Great schools for my kids
2. NO CARS (I, and my wife, hate driving with a passion and we are fine renting a car when totally needed)
3. City life (culture, museums, art, food, being able to walk almost everywhere)
4. Safety for my wife and kids.
5. Quieter neighborhood away from the 25yr old crowd that is looking to get laid and party it up every other night.
6. Green. I need green trees, green grass, blue water, etc.
What isn't really important...
1. Super hip bars and clubs. I just don't care (my favorite places to drink are neighborhood Irish pubs that have regulars and get maybe 20-30 people on weekends).
2. The fact that Boston nightlife closes down at 1-2am as opposed to NYC's ~4am. Been there, done that and I have lived in 1:30am last call towns for years now.
Austin provides next to none of my wants, with the exception of some decent schools, despite what people claim. I grew up around these things and I want my children to as well. This is all what brought my search to the Boston area.
I KNOW Boston and the surrounding areas are not like the 5 boroughs, though that doesn't necessarily bother me. I wasn't big on the most loved sections of Manhattan, honestly. My favorites places are areas like Greenwich Village (Man), Park Slope (Bklyn), Astoria (Qns), DUMBO (Bklyn), Sunnyside (Qns), etc. In other words, I like the slower parts of the urban world. Lower buildings, village like feel, but still providing easy access to "the big city", no car/high walkability, etc.
This move won't happen until my younger son is almost ready for school any my car is paid off so I can sell it easily, so we are looking at 2 years minimum. I just wanted to get an idea on what people think of Brookline and Newton for my family and I, based on the information I have given. I like their proximity to Boston so I can get the "bigger city" stuff when I want it, but still live in a slower paced, still urbanish, area with good schools for my kids. It seems like Brookline is the better fit with easier access by foot, bike or T into Boston proper, but Newton has the slightly better schools (not that either suck)? On the other hand, it seems that Brookline is the more "no car" friendly of the two (please understand that I have no problem renting a car when needed and grocery delivery is planned, I just do not want a car to cut out the cost)?
Both NYC and Boston are great markets for my specific career, and my wife doesn't need more than a part time job for extra money, so that isn't a problem. I was just hoping for some insider thoughts on how living in these places and in the Boston proper area will be based on my background and what I am looking for. On that note, by the time this move happens I should be in the 110-130k a year range for myself, and figure around 30k more a year for my wife, maybe more. Without a car I have no problem spending up to 2.5-3k/mo on rent (I only do around 60k/yr right now in Austin and pay $1,200/mo in rent for a 900sq ft 2 bedroom, not including any utilities, $450/mo on a car, $140/mo on a motorcycle, $175/mo on insurance, gas money, maintenance, etc; and my wife doesn't work at all).
I would like to say thank you in advance for any and all help/info you can provide me. I have been pulling my hair out over this decision for months now so I can start firmly planning and I look forward to any responses. Oh, last thing... I am fully planning on taking a trip to Boston this summer with the wife to get more of a first hand feel of these places. I have been to Boston a few times, but mostly as a kid and the last time was a good 15+ years ago. I will not move somewhere sight unseen again, however I still wanted to get informed input.
Sorry this got soooo long, I just wanted to be as specific as I could.
I think Newton/Brookline is a good choice for you. The schools in both places are top notch and your budget for a place sounds somewhat realistic. Both are very walkable, have great culture and much easier access to Boston then any of the outer boro places you mentioned have to NYC. You may need a car for some things but I would think you could easily get by with a zipcar. I think you will also enjoy how close you are to NYC and the myriad of options of getting there (bus, train, etc). You can even do a long day trip to NYC on the bus! New England is an awesome region in it's own right with access to wonderful places like the Cape, Maine, and mountains in Vermont. Brookline and/or Newton are the right towns for you if like green. Also, for tech, the job market and salaries are just as good in Boston as they are in NYC with significantly less taxes and cost of living.
A few things to bear in mind:
Obviously the winter. Winter is generally 2-3 weeks longer in Boston than NYC. Part of this is being so close to the water; you can have a 40 degree rainy day in May when the wind blows from the east. This is depressing and after a Boston winter, you are in no mood. As a trade off, the summers are MUCH nicer and the falls are more spectacular.
Public transit does not run 24 hours. You can't buy alcohol in most grocery stores. In my experience, people are generally not as friendly as those in New York City proper but much friendlier than they are in the NYC suburbs (Jersey, Long Island Westchester, etc). People aren't as worldly and cultured as in they are in NYC proper but much more worldly and cultured than the NYC suburbs.
In general, the area is much more scenic than the NYC area, more green, more water, etc.
You are on the right track, but lot will depend on where are your jobs. If you are working in Boston, than public transportation will be no brainier, if you are working anywhere near 128 corridor you will need a car.
Best areas to live without car will not have good schools--that is something you should think about. Many families in Brookline, Cambridge, Newton keep one car for school drop-off, weekends and errands, including going to the beach, or skiing. Unlike getting out of NYC on weekend--we in Boston Metro have things easy and close. There is so much to do and see. Ponds, mountains, Western MA, Cape Cod, South Shore, North Shore, Maine, NH, RI.. Everything is close by.
I would think that Brookline around Coolidge Corner and Brookline Village is bit more pedestrian friendly in general. Newton can be bit more spread out, and suburban in places. Newton Center comes to mind as more pedestrian area.
I would throw Arlington in the mix, especially East Arlington near Alewife Red Line train station that can make life very easy with commute to Cambridge (Davis, Porter, Harvard Sq, Central Sq., Kendall Sq.) and Boston.
Keep in mind that qualified daycare and preschools in this area are very expensive (if not most expensive and competitive in the area) so plan your budget accordingly. Also think that you will be needing to budget for heat, your food will go up, as well as gas and insurance. Also there is lead issue--too many very old homes. For 2-2.5K in rent you will be OK, but unfortunately you will not be getting what you can get in Texas for same money.
My advice is to allow for a possibility of a family hauler as you do have young kids and weather can be nasty for a 3-4 months out of the year. Boston area is not NYC.
Good luck!
I definitely plan for the increase in heating expenses, however the decrease in cooling should offset that quite a bit. In Austin you are running A/C from March to November, give or take, and from May to September you are not just running A/C, but are CRANKING A/C.
The most important things to me are schools right now, which is why I am so focused on Newton and Brookline, more so Brookline since it seems to fit more of my immediate needs. Regarding work, I am doing this a little more opposite than most in the sense that I am finding out where I want to live and once that is established I will look for work accordingly. Obviously if an amazing offer were to come my way that may offset things, but I will concentrate my search on companies that are in locations I can commute to using mass transit. A car is the last of last resorts in my decision, I just don't want one, so that will cut out a good deal of many people's monthly expenses (parking, insurance, gas, payment on the car itself in many cases, etc). I can then take that money and apply it to higher rent, especially since this move, coupled with 2 years or so extra experience for me, will result in what should be a much higher wage than what I make, and solely survive on, now (growing up poor teaches you a lot about money management ).
Daycare isn't much of an issue since that is the main reason my wife doesn't work now; it's just too expensive. I don't skimp when it comes to my kids, so even in Texas the cheapest places I was able to find that meet my standards were in the range of $1,600-$1,900/mo for the two of them and with my wife not having a tech background the jobs around here wouldn't be worth it for her, so she just doesn't work. When the time for this move comes, my older son will be in 2nd or 3rd grade and my younger will be about to go into Kindergarten or 1st, depending on timing, thus removing daycare from the situation. The other plus is that my wife will be able to work, at least part time, since both kids will be in normal school at the time of this move. At the moment this isn't possible so all of my budgeting and planning is based on single income and will stay that way since I won't know if she ends up making 15k a year or 45k a year until it actually happens.
I definitely understand what you're saying about having a car to do things on the weekends, and I'm not going to lie, it would be nice. What I am looking for, however, is a place where we can have a normal day to day life without a car since that is going to be the majority of our time. When those weekends come up and it's time to take a trip to the country, the beach, out of state, we can just rent a car.
A lot of what you both said is also what draws me to Boston. It seems like it is a proper city by all rights that is still veiled by nature and an almost village-like feel (at least the parts I have experienced and researched). I can't express to you how much I dislike the brown landscape of Texas and how much I miss trees - real trees, not these odd, ugly things that are all over Austin which people refer to as trees. Another big thing is New England itself... renting that car on a weekend and being able to drive out to true village towns, mountains, beautiful country, etc. I'm a NYC guy at heart and always will be, but I think Boston's combination of big city that doesn't have a rush, rush, rush big city feel, old roots, access to charming country, etc is what I need at this stage in my life.
Thank you again for the insight, I greatly appreciate it!
It sounds like you've really got this nailed down. Newton has the better school system but Brookline will give you the more automobile free lifestyle you desire. If you do end up in Newton I would strongly encourage you to keep one car. Things like Zip Car are not as common in Newton and you'll want a car to do things like grocery shopping as your other alternative will likely be riding a bus and likely making several transfers. Overnight parking on the street in Brookline is not allowed and parking spaces are a bit of a hot commodity so being car free in Brookline is not a bad idea.
Based on your post, I think you would strongly prefer Brookline. Newton is quite a bit more spread out and less dense. The two are apples & oranges really.
I guess I did sort of have this figured out before hand so I suppose this thread was more looking for affirmation than anything else... After this Austin fiasco I'm just nervous about going anywhere that isn't in Manhattan, Queens or Brooklyn thinking I'm never going to be truly happy. It does sound like Brookline and Boston are going to give me what I am looking for now that I am older and want more of a family friendly environment that still gives me a proper city when I feel the need for that kind of thing, however.
MikePRU is completely right: Newton is walkable in a recreational sense but it would be very hard to live there without a car. There are almost no buses, just the Riverside trolley and the occasional commuter train. Newton has its villages but I don't think any of them have the staples covered. Brookline, along the Harvard St corridor, really is walkable. There are many other areas in and around Boston that are walkable but the schools aren't easy. In Brookline, they're easy.
Weather My in-laws are thinking about moving from Los Angeles to Boston to be closer to us, but I've been highly encouraging them to visit Boston during the winter and during the summer. In the winter, it gets miserably, freezing cold and the ice is not fun at all. In the summer, it can get humid and muggy. I've been to New York City many times, and it's definitely colder in Boston than 5 hours down south.
Commute
As someone who has lived in Boston my entire life, where I'm literally 6 minutes from Downtown, I find Newton bordering on suburban. You will need a car out there in Newton especially unless you don't mind living near a noisy train station. I hired a lot of wedding vendors in the Newton area, and I don't own a car, and as a Bostonian, I found it a pain to get around Newton as a pedestrian. At the very end of the D Line at Riverside Newton was 30 minutes trolley ride to get into Park Street, which is the heart of Boston. It's 20 minutes to get to Copley Square from Riverside. Brookline is closer to Boston, so you can shave 10 minutes off the trolley commute.
I would find the job first and then determine the commute. If you were to travel from Newton to Cambridge where the tech jobs are concentrated, it's an hour commute on public transportation, so you would be better off in Arlington or Cambridge. Just don't neglect the commute, because it can get cold and crowded. It could be just as annoying to take the train as it is to drive.
Cost of Living
My husband and I make more than twice your Texas income with potential to go up. We don't have kids and we only pay $1500 a month rent to live in South Boston (2.5 bedroom, 1000 square feet). We don't own a car. But sometimes we look at our bank account and wonder where all the money goes (student loans, heat, taxes, train=$282 for two of us). So to me $3K for rent is a LOT of money. Remember, unlike Texas, there is a MA state income tax. Healthcare, daycare, and heat also cost more here. Also, if you plan to send your kids to Brookline/Newton, they might want to go to a fancy private college, so you have to start setting aside money for their education. You also will have to put more money aside for retirement, especially if your wife doesn't plan to work full time again (her social security benefits will be lower). If you can spend $3K rent, you might want to consider getting a condo in Newton/Brookline. For $3K a month you can also get a decent sized house in Arlington.
You also have to consider if you want to do the fun things like theaters ($50-$150 a ticket), museums ($10-$20 a ticket), and restaurants ($50-$100 per person at really nice places), you might not want to sink all of the money in rent. Just as someone who lives in the heart of the city but does a daily commute to Wellesley (one town over from Newton), I don't think Newton is that much closer to city events. You're going to have as long a commute in (20-30 minutes), except the train comes more frequently in Newton and Brookline (every 15 minutes trolley vs 60-90 minutes commuter rail) and probably can get away without owning a car in Brookline. In my opinion, a lot of the best cultural stuff is in the South End/Back Bay, Symphony Hall, and MFA areas so to get there by train/bus, you have to get off at Copley and switch back onto the E train or jump on a few different bus routes. So being in Newton/Brookline, your only advantage is that your near the frequent trolley. But any suburbanite can just come into the commuter train station at Back Bay or South Station.
Anyway, my point is Brookline and Newton are great, but there are other parts of Massachusetts that will give you that leafy, family-friendly feeling and be within reasonable commute to Boston. Personally, if I had a car and it wasn't so far a commute for my husband's work in Downtown, I would love to live in Newton and Brookline. But even with our salary, we feel like we're priced out of that area long-term as potential home-owners. Just something to consider--what you and your wife will do if you lost your job or you want to retire. Do you want any equity built anywhere or would you rather not do the whole mortgage thing anyway?
Anyway, if you really want the more urban feeling and don't want a car, I would go with Brookline. You might also consider getting a condo in Newton, which usually are closer to train stops.
Last edited by sharencare; 01-06-2013 at 11:02 PM..
Brookline, hands down, especially around Coolidge Corner. (The further reaches of Brookline are very suburban and car-dependent).
Coolidge Corner is urbane, great public transport, few if any chain stores/restaurants. Yes, there are student-aged people, but overall the feel is urbane and adult. Big Jewish influence. I have never heard the slightest negative word about the schools on any level.
As I think, Linux jobs are likely to be suburban/exurban? Like Rt. 128 and 495, or maybe Cambridge, which is not far from Brookline but can be very clunky by public transport.
Still, I vote for Brookline, now and forever.
(Disclaimer- Coolidge Corner was my first neighborhood when I moved to the area). Bookstores (real ones) a great movie theater, wide mix of people. Yup. Brookline. Best wishes.
I have no intention of buying anything for quite some time so renting is fine by me for the next several years. Everything is based on theory at this point, however I don't want to come in and immediately spend 3k a month on rent, it is just what I calculate as the highest I am likely going to be able to afford knowing the pay rates in my field for the Boston area. I have done quite a bit of searching on sites like Trulia, Craigslist, various apartment sites, etc, and the common prices for modest 2 bedrooms in the Coolidge Corner area are $2,200-$2,400/mo. I've seen lower and higher, and I do know that in 2 years these prices are likely to be higher, but it seems like I can find something on the lower end of my planned budget.
Regarding weather, I've always had a high tolerance to the cold. I don't wear more than a thin zipped hoodie until it gets below 35 degrees and I've gone through stretches of life where a motorcycle was my only, year round, mode of transportation. I definitely agree that Boston is a colder climate than NY/NJ, however I do have many a memory of walking to school when it was in the neighborhood of 20 degrees. Regarding heat, I will take a moderately humid 85-90 over a mostly dry 110 any day. The heat here in Austin is downright oppressive and I just can't take to it... I miss east coast summers badly. On that note, cost of heating will absolutely be higher than what I am used to, however a lot of the apartments I've seen advertised seem to include heat in the rent. Aside from that, we aren't big on keeping the house higher than 65ish degrees since wearing sweatshirts is always an option and in TX you have months and months of AC use, with many of them being extremely high AC use. I will essentially be replacing 8-9 months of very high cooling bills for a couple less months of high heating bills.
My wife working part time is only while the kids are younger to be quite honest. I don't have the desire to hold the stress of a single income family for the rest of my working days. Once our older son is old enough to keep an eye on the younger and after school activities start becoming more prevalent, we fully plan for her to work full time. She is smart, college educated, experienced, etc, so I am sure when that time comes she will be able to find a job with good pay. Fortunately, my industry is fairly high paying and while I may never see 200k/year, making it to the 130-150k range is not impossible by any stretch. Retirement planning, sending the kids to college, etc is all part of the plan as well (my kids are also going to shoulder some of their school costs as a matter of principle and life education, however). The good thing is that with the exception of my car and motorcycle we have almost no debt so once those are gone (before moving) we really just have to worry about the cost of living and future planning.
When it comes to the lack of state income tax in my check, it makes a difference but it isn't that huge to be perfectly honest. Especially with our high tax rates on everything else and relatively low rate of pay compared to the rest of the country. I am one of the highest paid people in my position with my current company and even I am right around $20k below the national average, and $35-40k below the same level position in places like Boston and NYC. I suppose the only point I was trying to make is that I don't have an amazing salary and we are able to make it all work so I know I can continue to do the same back east, especially knowing that this is a move by choice and I won't do it unless the job offers are promising enough money to make life work without tons of struggle. I would also like to point out that Austin is cheap to buy a home, but with its growth in recent years, renting is definitely not that cheap if you want to live anywhere desirable and not have to drive 45 minutes or more, each way, to work. Yes, it is less than the Boston area, unless you live in downtown Austin or immediately around it (talk about overpriced...), but it is all relative with the rate of pay, necessity of owning 1-2 vehicles, gas, insurance, etc.
I don't mind commutes of 20-30 minutes by mass transit either, that is nothing for me. When I was living in Jersey I would commute 45-60 minutes by NJT into Penn Station and then spend another 20-30 minutes getting to my building. Compared to driving, this was a dream since I could just stand there or sit. Crowded trains and things like that are second nature to me since I dealt with them my whole life, as are transfers. I am also very open to bicycling when the ground isn't snow and ice covered and it is at least 30-35 degrees.
When it comes to Linux jobs, that's the best part, they can be anywhere. Linux is used for a huge number of corporate servers, mail servers, application servers, etc. Banks, hospitals, finance offices, schools, you name it. My money is on the Cambridge area having the higher density of jobs, followed by the business centers of downtown Boston, however it isn't at all a stretch to think there will be jobs outside and in suburbia. I really want my children to have access to a good school while we are still close enough to the city and our personal living environment is NOT totally suburban, but isn't fully urban either, and that is what drew me to Brookline the most. I admit, I could probably find something inside of Boston itself, but my research has led me to believe that the schooling just won't be there. It looks like Beacon Hill might be the exception to that, however I don't see living in Beacon Hill as realistic with the insane rental prices I have found there.
My plan, if you can call it that, is to live in Brookline (thanks for affirming my decision, everyone!) close to the Coolidge Corner area for walkability sake and to give my kids access to those highly rated public schools, while giving me mostly easy access to the city life I miss so badly, minus a lot of the stuff I don't miss from NYC such as the filth, overcrowding, never sleep atmosphere, etc. I will then focus my job search on areas that are immediately accessible via mass transit and move outward. To be perfectly honest though, if my M-F commute ends up being a pain but I get to live in a nice place like Brookline (from what you've all, and others have, said) while sending my kids to very highly rated schools, it's worth it all the way. A big part of not wanting a car isn't just hard headedness and disdain for driving but not wanting the cost that comes with it so I can apply that money elsewhere.
Edit: I would also like to add that if any of you know of any places inside of Boston itself with good public schools where I could likely rent a 2bdrm within the price range I mentioned, I'm open to ideas.
Last edited by TommyIrish; 01-07-2013 at 05:35 PM..
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