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Come on. Providence has a good restaurant scene, and music scene, etc too. I live there. But it's still crap compared to Boston or NY, and Providence is WAAAY better than Northampton and Springfield in those respects, still, everyone is going weekly to Boston for culture/music/etc, at a minimum.
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Originally Posted by btownboss4
Weekly, that's bull****, I know people in Lowell who go to Boston once a year for Red Sox games.
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Originally Posted by massnative71
Those were my thoughts too...
I would be surprised if most people in Providence even take advantage of the music/food, etc IN THAT CITY on a weekly basis. As for Boston, I mention I'm I come from Boston to someone down there and I typically get a "oh I was in Boston once 10 years ago, I went to a Sox game..."
Weekly, that's bull****, I know people in Lowell who go to Boston once a year for Red Sox games.
My cousins from down south were in Massachusetts last month for family circumstances I won't go into here. Nevertheless they wanted to go into Boston one night. I joined them and it was my first time ever using a Charlie Card from the vending machines on the MBTA. I stopped working in Boston in 2007 and at that time I had one of the monthly T-Passes that encompassed the subway and commuter rail.
That night will probably satisfy my 'need' for big city urbanity for at least five years or so.
You say that like it is a bad thing? Knoxville, TN is a far healthier and self-sufficient city than Springfield. Some of the rural parts of Appalachia are pretty bleak, yes. But, they don't have the fortune of being a backyard playground for wealthy NYers like Western MA does. For the natives trying to scrape by in either place, I don't think one is really superior to another.
Ever been to Bristol, TN? You just didn't quite get all the way to Appalachia. I don't think wealthy NYers vacation in Pittsfield or North Adams, either. They certainly don't vacation in Springfield or Holyoke.
My point was that the vibrant economy of metro Boston props up the rest of the state. Without that enormous corporate and individual tax base, Massachusetts would be in a perpetual budget calamity.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
Weekly, that's bull****, I know people in Lowell who go to Boston once a year for Red Sox games.
Worcester and Springfield to have several large companies too you know.
Also you have to realize that even though infrastrture spending goes out West in many cases it's for Boston, you think that anyone in WMass uses the Mass Pike to get anywhere when there are 3 exits in its last 50 miles? No although it's seen as tax money "subsidizing" Western Mass infrastructure it's for Boston not for Western Mass
On average, weekly, yes. Sometimes its multiple times a week, sometimes not every week, but on average. I guess the people you know aren't into music and art, if their rare visits to the only real city around is for baseball. I'm only there once this week myself, but was there 3x last week.
You say that like it is a bad thing? Knoxville, TN is a far healthier and self-sufficient city than Springfield. Some of the rural parts of Appalachia are pretty bleak, yes. But, they don't have the fortune of being a backyard playground for wealthy NYers like Western MA does. For the natives trying to scrape by in either place, I don't think one is really superior to another.
Knoxville is the only "major metro" within a couple of hours in any direction. It also has the state's flagship university and sits at the crossroads of two major interstates (I-75 and I-40). Knoxville is not really representative of "Appalachia" at all. It is the only "outpost of civilization" for basically hours in an otherwise lightly populated region. The metro size is comparable to Springfield, but otherwise, there's not a lot of similarity there.
Lexington, KY is close to three hours north of Knoxville. Nashville is essentially three hours away. Atlanta is a little more than that. You could theoretically cross MA from Richmond, MA to Boston, outside of rush hour, in about the same amount of time as you could get to any other decently sized metro from Knoxville.
I spent quite a bit of time at a previous job in metro Boston, and have been through Springfield a few times. Other than Six Flags, what is the attraction in Springfield to make it a playground community?
I would choose Knoxville over Springfield, but I don't see how Springfield is honestly so bad. There are plenty of towns in east TN (Crossville, Newport come to mind) with far, far higher crime rates than Springfield, but the towns are tiny, so they'll never make a "worst places" list. Springfield also has the advantage of being much closer to better cities, and New England states spend a lot more on social assistance and such than places like Virginia and Tennessee. You're going to have some sort of infrastructure and social ties to better areas in Springfield, and some way to move ahead if you're determined and keep your nose clean. In rural Appalachia, you really don't have that. I'd much rather be poor in a failing city in Massachusetts than somewhere in rural Appalachia, just due to the services provided by the state governments.
Geoff mentioned Bristol. I was in Bristol yesterday, and I'm there several times a week. Bristol is close to three hours away from Roanoke, VA, the nearest city of consequence on I-81. Bristol is two hours from Knoxville, TN. You have close to five hours of interstate between Roanoke and Knoxville that is pretty much nothing but rolling hills other than the 15 miles or so between Bristol and Kingsport. If you get off the interstates in these areas, it's basically Mordor
"I don't think wealthy NYers vacation in Pittsfield or North Adams, either. They certainly don't vacation in Springfield or Holyoke."
I don't know about wealthier but it depends. There is a Berkshire rail to NYC that is popping up. Have you ever been to Hudson NY? It's the Brooklyn away from Brooklyn in just two square miles. Not saying I'd live there but it's certainly worth a visit for the architecture alone. I've never seen a place with such diversity of buildings. The whisky flights are a plus as well :-D
Ironically you mention Holyoke and the St Patricks day parade brings in 400K people. Ten times the population of the city. Not saying it can live on the money year round but it is significant in the area.
In terms of the terms city and town there are 20 local governments in mass with a city form of government that still call themselves towns for marketing purposes. Greenfield and West Springfield come to mind. Weymouth switched years ago (although the first mayor was embarrassing). It has nothing to do with population as there's cities in Texas with 300 people. However, Mass only designates a rural area has having 10,000 people or less.
Jobs are only one source of income. You have to remember that not everyone has to work. If someone is retiring what are the concerns? Public transit, access to health care, property taxes etc. As mentioned salaries aren't always lower in western Mass. Many I know have 2nd homes on the Cape. You save enough in one house that you invest in other ways.
"The factory jobs that pay middle class wages are gone forever no matter how many red hats you hand out at campaign rallies."
I'm not a Trump supporter and didn't vote for him. There is manufacturing in western Mass as a whole. Is it like it was in the 1950's? No of course not but tens of thousands do make a living. Despite education 10% of Hampshire county works in manufacturing same with Franklin. Western Mass EDC Manufacturing http://www.westernmassedc.com/upload...Mfg_Report.pdf
"The problem we have in the United States is that the state-administered safety net means that poor people aren't mobile."
"In Syria, everybody fled to Europe."
Actually they didn't. I know that's a tangent but what happened is the camps that Libya had with deals with the EU broke down after they were overthrown. It's been going on for quite some time. Think marial boatlift but on a much higher level.
"In the failed cities, they're locked in place with Section 8, Medicaid, TANF, food stamps, and the rest. If they leave the state to go where the jobs are, they lose those benefits. The people who leave are the middle class."
I'm well aware of poverty traps but you have to understand that the public housing reform act of 2014 eliminated the local list that did what you are talking about. The local lists pretty much had people stay. There were issues in public housing. Various scandals and a lack of oversight and since the state pays for much of the housing they saw empty units in some parts of the state and long waiting lines in others. The waiting list is now centralized at the state level. If you deny the first off that's fine but if you deny the second that's it. No public housing for you. So yes some might go from Westfield to Wellesley or North Adams to Andover. We aren't a big state and you can get from one point to another in probably under three hours (islands excluded). Section 8 does not legally have to be accepted by a landlord. Now if they say they flat out don't take it that's discrimination but if they can make the argument that they cannot afford to have a section 8 administrator make determinations that's another. Mass NAHRO has had classes for section 8 termination hearings increasingly of which they wouldn't do unless they anticipate more evictions.
Springfield isn't making any more new public housing. At the same point there's no public housing units in Longmeadow or section 8.
Tuition follows the student and the fact that Metco still exists tells us that Boston Public Schools as a entity still has not improved 50 years later. Boston Public Schools now has a lower graduation rate than Springfield. Sure you can send to private but if you want to send a kid to private school why live in an expensive area? If you spend Boston prices on housing why isn't there a Lexington, Concord, Newton, Wellesley result?
Keep in mind income taxes are the same rate statewide, it's the property taxes and assessed rate that vary all over the place. A high income earner in Boston is paying the same taxes at the same rate as the same salary in North Adams. Sometimes smaller towns actually do pay more than larger ones and cities. Sometimes less applicants due to remoteness drives up demand City and large town mayors earn less than small-town counterparts - News - The Patriot Ledger, Quincy, MA - Quincy, MA
As for people going to Boston every week that's false. Maybe during the 80's and 90's but not now. The internet made it much easier to gather groups of people and the quality of HDTV's made it much easier to just go to a bar rather than the game. Analog tv image quality was quite poor. I'm sorry but at least for sports the costs of going and the time money and energy it just isn't as much of a draw as it used to be. I grew up in the 80's and 90's and the "underdog" mentality kept people going. It isn't really that big of a deal now to watch professional sports in Mass. How many more superbowls, world series, NBA playoffs and Stanley cups do we need to win? Of course the crowd will sell out but given the number of colleges and transit that includes air and nearly half the state it isn't that big of a deal. Yes of course if there's specific medical treatment people go up. Academia of course but how long can you go to higher ed for? I'm not saying Northampton and Amherst are the same as Cambridge but for many people that is enough. I go to events sometimes up there and come back to Springfield but I don't have to pay the prices of eastern Mass.
With respect to the budget we also have to keep in mind that non profits do not pay taxes. They can pay PILOTS which is fine but they can provide a false sense of the economy. Having taxable properties is pretty important as revenue is more locally sourced. Even Boston relies on the state for 13.8% of it's revenue (Cambridge is at 5.5%). Look at the DOR databank itself. Chapter 70 funding is student based and it costs at least 12K a year for a student to get educated in Mass. Of course people aren't paying that in property taxes and that's why there is state aid in education. At the same point chapter 90 is with road reimbursement. Naturally more urban areas are going to receive more road aid vs more rural. https://dlsgateway.dor.state.ma.us/D...ortViewer.aspx
If know of communities on the south shore that had as much as 30% of their budget coming from the state. Sure it looked affluent but regional districts largely receive more state aid. There can also be some budget tricks depending on how they incorporate department budgets. In Lexington their DPW is under the school budget, not town. So each year when they open up the town budget it looks really lean. However the school side is much larger. I believe it might have been Lynnfield that put their school busing under their DPW (not sure why) Busing is right behind food as the largest line item in public education in Mass.
Some places can just look busy if they are looking at the wrong information. I know of a home depot that is next to a parking authority lot. The parking authority charges for parking but the home depot doesn't. As a result at any given time in the year that parking lot is half full. Retail analysts used to use satellite photos of retailers during black Friday and use the cars as a metric of attention. It doesn't work that way anymore. Just as when I see reporters in urban areas look at blight but don't turn around the camera to see newer buildings. In Springfield the "new" Brookings is around the corner from the old one since shuttered since the tornado in 2011.
I've even seen complete projects that people assumed were private but in fact were public. MassDevelopment gave out no interest loans during the recession to stalled projects.
On average, weekly, yes. Sometimes its multiple times a week, sometimes not every week, but on average. I guess the people you know aren't into music and art, if their rare visits to the only real city around is for baseball. I'm only there once this week myself, but was there 3x last week.
People are into music and art but to drive at least 1.5 hrs on the Mass Pike to attend symphony on a Saturday night in winter isn't as pleasant as you may think. The MFA is great too but same thing. It's hard to belong and attend events when it's so hard to get to. That's why I go to Boston every few years now. Actually, it's easier to get to NYC and train service starts in May.
Instead of throwing us a few cake crumbs, how about something that would really help. Like train service. Maybe something that would spark some jobs too. We are part of Massachusetts last time I checked.
Weekly, that's bull****, I know people in Lowell who go to Boston once a year for Red Sox games.
Worcester and Springfield to have several large companies too you know.
Also you have to realize that even though infrastrture spending goes out West in many cases it's for Boston, you think that anyone in WMass uses the Mass Pike to get anywhere when there are 3 exits in its last 50 miles? No although it's seen as tax money "subsidizing" Western Mass infrastructure it's for Boston not for Western Mass
People in Western Mass can "see it" however they want, the fact is Western MA is subsidized by Eastern MA tax payers. Greater Boston obviously gets more money it terms of dollars, but Western MA get more than their share in terms of per capita. Same with Upstate & Western NY.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland
People are into music and art but to drive at least 1.5 hrs on the Mass Pike to attend symphony on a Saturday night in winter isn't as pleasant as you may think. The MFA is great too but same thing. It's hard to belong and attend events when it's so hard to get to. That's why I go to Boston every few years now. Actually, it's easier to get to NYC and train service starts in May.
Instead of throwing us a few cake crumbs, how about something that would really help. Like train service. Maybe something that would spark some jobs too. We are part of Massachusetts last time I checked.
Of course it isn't pleasant. That is why living closer to the culture is preferable. But, if one can't afford it (like I couldn't afford to buy in the Boston area), then I have to travel to it to experience it. Not going isn't an option in my mind.
And yes, you're part of Massachusetts, and are heavily subsidized thanks to the Boston economy.
People are into music and art but to drive at least 1.5 hrs on the Mass Pike to attend symphony on a Saturday night in winter isn't as pleasant as you may think. The MFA is great too but same thing. It's hard to belong and attend events when it's so hard to get to. That's why I go to Boston every few years now.
After moving to Springfield my parents went down to Boston in the morning for something, returned home, then back again in the evening for Symphony, then home again. And this was pre-turnpike so they made the two round-trips in the Studebaker over Route 20 and Route 9. After that they realized they didn't live in the Boston area any more!
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Instead of throwing us a few cake crumbs, how about something that would really help. Like train service. Maybe something that would spark some jobs too. We are part of Massachusetts last time I checked.
I remember seeing my father off on the "Buddliner" at Union Station in Springfield when he was taking courses at Simmons, in the '50s before the turnpike opened. Service like that would be very nice to have. As you say, CT and MA have joined forces to offer better service between Springfield and points south. I understand it's a heavy lift to make the old B&A track from Springfield to Worcester good enough for regular passenger service (beyond the once a day Amtrak train) but it would be great to have. Other than funding, opposition from the Picknellys (Peter Pan bus owners) would be the main obstacle.
There seems to be a lot of interest now in better rail service at the state level--lots of ideas about electrifying the present T commuter rail lines, extending service to New Bedford, a link between North and South Stations, better T linkages within Boston, etc. Some of it spurred by the prospect of Amazon dropping 50,000 new well paid workers in Boston. As the article I linked upthread says, beautiful houses can be had in Springfield for pennies on the dollar. A reasonably good rail connection to points east would make Springfield and surroundings a housing option for people working in central and eastern MA and in general improve the economic connectivity between Eastern and Western Mass. The turnpike had exactly that impact 60 years ago but now we need something new.
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