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Like another poster said, shouldn't these exhaulted counselors have some advice to give? Besides read this and that book, when they haven't read it themselves.
We have many problems with our ds, have run him to many counselors over the years. All they do is tell me to read books, they NEVER once have offered one bit of advice, not one single thing.
All they say is you need to find you own solutions. Well then WTF am I doing there, spending my time and money to be handed a reading list!
Counseling isn't about giving you solutions but helping you find them.... helping you learn coping skills and working through positive re-inforcement.
If they arent helping you figure out a coping method then you do need to see a different counselor. Many books have great ideas on figuring out which coping methods will work best for your family. Without knowing specifics its kind of hard to figure out.
Many times a counselor can't help if the patient/family isn't opening up... the statements that should be made is "this is the problem, how can we cope or fix it?" but its only an option that you or anyone can put into place.
Counseling isn't about giving you solutions but helping you find them.... helping you learn coping skills and working through positive re-inforcement.
If they arent helping you figure out a coping method then you do need to see a different counselor. Many books have great ideas on figuring out which coping methods will work best for your family. Without knowing specifics its kind of hard to figure out.
Many times a counselor can't help if the patient/family isn't opening up... the statements that should be made is "this is the problem, how can we cope or fix it?" but its only an option that you or anyone can put into place.
Yea, well, they never even do that! I never once got one bit of help finding coping skills, etc. Literally, they just sit there and look at you. You'd think they were charging by the word and don't want to give any "free advice'.
Have you ever been to counseling? Or are you just parroting what society thinks counselors do? Because most people I know who actually went to counseling have the same experience---its a waste of time. We're not expecting the counselor to hand us a solution, but say something! Give us some insight, a perspective, coping skills, help us find our way through whatever is the difficulty, but don't just sit there and stare at us!
Frankly, I've never known anyone to be helped by counseling. Most counselors get their bread-and-butter from court-mandated clients, that find themselves saying whatever the counselor needs to hear to get the counseling requirement met. That's what we found ourselves doing with ds. He was on probation for a variety of reasons. Counseling was court-ordered, although we'd attended counseling prior to that at our own iniative. The counseling we sought never helped much, so we got discouraged. We did attend the court-ordered counseling with a positive attitude, I felt perhaps this lady would have the right perspective. she deals with kids like this, right? She should have the right background to work with us. But we found her overbearing, on a power kick, argumentative. We found ourselves saying whatever it took to please her and satisfy the court requirement.
Sadly, counseling we obtained on our own was never offered anything, and court-appointed counseling was abusive and manuiplative, we had to please the counselor!
And don't suggest books the counsleor hasn't even read himself! Counseling, like any other service, isn't free. Do something besides just stare at a person!
Last edited by MaryleeII; 11-24-2010 at 02:49 AM..
[quote=MaryleeII;16768258]..................... We did attend the court-ordered counseling with a positive attitude, I felt perhaps this lady would have the right perspective. she deals with kids like this, right? She should have the right background to work with us. But we found her overbearing, on a power kick, argumentative. We found ourselves saying whatever it took to please her and satisfy the court requirement.
.....................[quote]
Maybe she was telling you something you refused to hear? People are frequently in denial about their family dynamics. Don't know you or your family, but this is what is usually going on.
And therapists with a cognitive-behavioral perspective are more interactive than analytically trained people.
Last edited by SouthernBelleInUtah; 11-24-2010 at 04:42 PM..
If you extend your hypothesis, you find that the result is ludicrous. Here's your hypothesis:
A drug counselor who has had personal experience abusing drugs is more qualified to address drug problems, than a drug counselor who has no personal experience abusing drugs.
Here's a few extensions:
A dentist who doesn't have rotting teeth, is less qualified than a dentist who has rotting teeth.
An ob/gyn who has never personally given birth, is less qualified to treat a patient than an ob/gyn who has.
A podiatrist who has never had any foot problems and takes excellent care of his feet, is less qualified to treat a patient than a podiatrist who has had foot problems or abuses his feet regularly.
You see how this is nonsense. If I saw a dentist with rotting teeth, I'd find a new dentist quick in a hurry. I don't care who my ob/gyn is, as long as he or she can make an accurate diagnosis. He/she doesn't need to be able to "relate" to the discomfort of an exam, a biopsy, even a D&C. He/she needs only to know that it IS painful, and that his/her patients WILL complain about it. As long as he/she can maintain a professional empathy, I'm content with his/her ability to handle my stress. If I went to a foot doctor who had bad posture and walked around wearing 6" stiletto pointed-toe shoes, I'd make a bee-line to another doctor.
I have been in 3-28 day rehab programs for alcohol and 7 Yeah 7 week long detox places before my sobriety finally stuck with me.
It's my experience that the counselors that have been through some form of alcohol or drug addiction are better then Non addicts..
In fact most detox/residential places would prefer to hire an x-addict as a substance abuse counselor.
Not only did they go to school to learn about addiction, they lived it. By living the life they have a fuller grasp on what a person is going through.
Once a person is past the inital stage of detox it's still a huge mental issue and having their insite on how they delt with that is helpfull..
Anyone thats never been addicted before it's not as easy as just "dont drink" "dont put a needle in your arm" ..
Most but not all addicts Pick up some sort of Healthier addictions.. Ever been to an AA meeting where they arent sucking coffee down like beer??.
People that quit smoking often gain weight or chew on toothpicks, because mentally we need something in our hands.. It takes awhile.
I'm almost 2 years sober now and still sometimes I have thoughts..not cravings of drinking.
Alot of what stops me from doing so is helpfull hints from my ex-addicted councelors on how they got through alot of issues.
If you extend your hypothesis, you find that the result is ludicrous. Here's your hypothesis:
A drug counselor who has had personal experience abusing drugs is more qualified to address drug problems, than a drug counselor who has no personal experience abusing drugs.
Here's a few extensions:
A dentist who doesn't have rotting teeth, is less qualified than a dentist who has rotting teeth.
An ob/gyn who has never personally given birth, is less qualified to treat a patient than an ob/gyn who has.
A podiatrist who has never had any foot problems and takes excellent care of his feet, is less qualified to treat a patient than a podiatrist who has had foot problems or abuses his feet regularly.
You see how this is nonsense. If I saw a dentist with rotting teeth, I'd find a new dentist quick in a hurry. I don't care who my ob/gyn is, as long as he or she can make an accurate diagnosis. He/she doesn't need to be able to "relate" to the discomfort of an exam, a biopsy, even a D&C. He/she needs only to know that it IS painful, and that his/her patients WILL complain about it. As long as he/she can maintain a professional empathy, I'm content with his/her ability to handle my stress. If I went to a foot doctor who had bad posture and walked around wearing 6" stiletto pointed-toe shoes, I'd make a bee-line to another doctor.
Your logic is impeccable as far as it goes, but somehow I think addictions are a different animal from any of the other excellent examples which you gave. When I read Caligula1's post (the one after yours just above), somethings rings true about it. I admit to being an "outsider" here, as my only addiction has been to sugar, for which I never sought professional help. I've more or less achieved a partial sugar sobriety on my own, albeit with great difficulty. And of course there is considerable doubt if sugar is a "real" addiction anyway, but it sure seems that way to me.
The OP's text supports his theory by stating he'd never go to a marriage counselor who hadn't been married. His claim about the drug counselor theory might very well be sound, but he's basing it on illogical data.
Again - to extend:
That marriage counselor you go to - yeah, he's been married. What he hasn't told you, is that he's been married 6 times. He's innately qualified at ensuring that marriages fail. The other counselor was married twice. Both divorced him because he had a fixation for his mother. Yeah he's real qualified to tell you about your marriage. The third counselor is married to his high school sweetheart, and has been married to her for the past 25 years. What HE doesn't tell you, is that he never made his bride sign a pre-nup, and the only reason he hasn't divorced her is because he's very wealthy and her daddy is a laywer.
The fourth counselor has been in a couple of serious relationships, one of which was a live-in for a few years. He's never been married. However, he has his degree and his credentials, and he's had a close cluster of good friends who have run the gamut of marital issues throughout their lives. He is also the child of a divorced mother and father, and his mother has since remarried and is happy in her relationship with his stepfather.
Who would I rather seek counseling from? Oh here's the caveat - you don't get to find out any details of the marriages. You get to find out only if they're married, have been married, or have been single throughout.
My point, is that if this is what you're setting your standards on, you're setting your standards on useless information.
A recovering drug addict - oh yeah he's qualified to tell me all about drugs, of course. Except - he's not just recovering. He's recovering for the 30th time in the past two years. He doesn't have to tell you that, though. He is a FAILED recovering addict. And you're putting your trust into him, your life in his hands, based on the fact that he's done drugs.
You don't know who you're getting. You aren't entitled to know the detailed information. So all you get to know, is what you're told. And when you're dealing with a drug addict, you're probably dealing with someone who has spent many many years perfecting his lies.
If counseling, therapy, incarceration, and any other human power can relieve a person's alcoholism/drug addiction, how is that working?
Throughout time, have things gotten better, worse, stayed the same?
I think there are strides being made in the different forms of recovery. From my experience, I think it's important to realize that people in general need to "control" their use of alcohol. This is one socially acceptable and legal form of a mind altering substance... when not used to the point of abuse. Some of us believe that there is a line that can be crossed for some and there's no point of return for them. Yet, there are some people who can over-indulge... then go back to normal use or abstain as if it's no big deal. Yet, there are some drugs that are known to be very addictive and are best to strictly adhere to a controlled use and to taper off in a very controlled way.
It is my belief that anybody can become an addict to certain drugs. Also, anybody can become a non-addict once they stop and withdraw from it. Now the mental aspects of staying stopped are different for some. Some go on about their business, and some are perhaps "real addicts" who will always be at risk of obsessing about it and they use again with the thought that it will be different this time... that they can "handle" it. Same with booze. Some hard drinkers can stop or moderate... if given a sufficient reason. But the real alcoholic is someone who can never "just don't drink... no matter what."
So... the counselor who is a recovered alcoholic and/or addict... is what some of us in recovery call a "Two-hatter."
Alcoholism and drug addiction are huge industries. They earn huge sums of money and provide careers for many. This is a fact. Follow the money. 12 Step programs work the way they do because they have an upside-down structure. The power of the structure is at the bottom of the triangle. The individual has the power to come and go as they please, pay their voluntary contribution or not... donate money to the local, regional, or world level... or not. The traditions and concepts set up for this encourage the fellowship to be voluntarily broke... after basic needs are met, so they have no controversy and nothing to fight over. They can do things wrongly or rightly... the only authority is booze. If we screw up, we get drunk. If we do things the best we can, we get to stay sober. The gift of sobriety was given freely to us, so we should freely give.
It works for some. I've done counseling and therapy. I got all I could from it. I had great intentions. I behaved well... for a time. But getting a personal access to Power worked/works best for me. I've done my 7th set of steps and am coming up on 7 years of sobriety and freedom from mind-altering drugs. Coincidence?
Have you ever been to counseling? Or are you just parroting what society thinks counselors do? Because most people I know who actually went to counseling have the same experience---its a waste of time. We're not expecting the counselor to hand us a solution, but say something! Give us some insight, a perspective, coping skills, help us find our way through whatever is the difficulty, but don't just sit there and stare at us!
Frankly, I've never known anyone to be helped by counseling.
I've been to counseling before. I've seen in my lifetime of 29 years about 5 different counselors. 3 were awful and 2 were really great. The great ones gave me coping skills, some solutions. Others I know have had a tougher time finding a good counselor. When finding a counselor, someone has to find one that clicks with your personality, kind of like dating of finding friends.
Have you ever been to counseling? Or are you just parroting what society thinks counselors do?
Frankly, I've never known anyone to be helped by counseling. Most counselors get their bread-and-butter from court-mandated clients, that find themselves saying whatever the counselor needs to hear to get the counseling requirement met.
I've been through several counselors. Some good.. some not so good.. A lot of counselors have no idea what they are doing as they just went to school... got a degree and are now "practicing". court ordered counselors I think are some of the "not so helpful" as they are getting paid - no matter what. A lot of times the counselor isn't there to give a solution but merely help a person find a solution that works for them... When a counselor suggests - "keep a journal" or "read xyz book".. a lot of times that is in the hopes to help the person see patterns in whats causing issues and or help them see different coping methods.
There are no "solutions" only best ways for a person to cope. I'm sorry that you haven't had any luck with counselors but keep trying.. Interview them before deciding to use them if your able to.
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Counseling, like any other service, isn't free. Do something besides just stare at a person!
Excellent logic, but....
