Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Wild West Dude, I believe it was you who quite some time ago remarked that governments had done so much damage that it was too late for people to try to set things straight. I'm inclined to agree, but since I'm a moving target, I have to maintain some hope that corrective remedies can be implemented.
I agree with you that the US has done about all that reasonably should be done about controlling its borders. We all tend to forget about boats and planes when we discuss the large range of the Mexican border, but I actually believe the US has overdone protecting the land border - at least between Juarez and El Paso.
Although you may believe that the only dream and motive that every Mexican has is to get into the US and stay there, you are wrong. The vast majority of Mexicans crossing from Juarez to El Paso want nothing more than to go shopping. So the extreme scrutiny of the tens of thousands crossing the bridges does little more than slow down how quickly the El Paso merchants can earn money from Mexican shoppers. Some shoppers have become so exasperated by the long waits and scrutiny that they have simply given up on El Paso shopping visits.
I am not denying the existence of illegal entries into the US, nor am I denying that of the thousands of vehicles there might be some carrying illegal substances. But, in this as in all things, it would make more sense to me to go with the statistical probabilities and lighten up on the treatment of people entering the US. For the few kilos blocked at the bridges, there are undoubtedly tons of contraband flying overhead.
Your attitude toward shooting people is a bit over the top. Your only objection to shooting Mexicans crossing into the US is that Latino groups would call it "racist." Does this mean that you otherwise think it's a good idea to shoot Mexicans? Please give me some idea what neighborhood you live in so I can be sure to avoid it.
This brings up another point that I wish I could get across to all Mexicans and all Americans: There is no such thing as a Mexican "race," and there is no such thing as an American "race." Both nations have a Heinz 57 varieties mix of races.
I suppose I agree with you that the users of drugs are not "more" to blame than the providers of drugs, but, to me, the logic is inescapable that if people quit using drugs, other people would have to quit selling drugs. On the other hand, placing more blame on the providers is like blaming the bartender for people who drink too much. I guess that in fact, some areas hold the bartender responsible for the condition of the drinker. But I'm more inclined to say that the person who orders the drink is the most responsible for drinking too much. And the same applies to drug consumption.
We have all heard about "drug pushers," but have you really ever met anybody who needed to be "pushed" to either drink too much or to use drugs? I haven't, so maybe you've met a higher class of people than I have. I've never met or heard of anybody who didn't use alcohol or other substances of their own free will.
I also have a problem with your definition of Mexico's interference in American affairs. You know very well that what is meant when somebody remarks that "Mexico does not interfere in foreign affairs," they are referring to officially directed government interference. Nobody would ever say that large groups of tourists and students on vacation swarming into Cancun constituted an example of US interference in Mexican affairs. Likewise, the presence of undocumented people of Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Haiti and many other places does not constitute any official government intervention in US affairs.
I remember that while I was in San Francisco there were people who complained about the vast number of "Mexicans" in San Francisco's Mission District. I checked it out, and it turned out that the vast number of Mexicans were actually citizens of El Salvador. For those of you who think "it's the same thing," I'm here to tell you that Mexico is not El Salvador. In any event, an undocumented presence of Mexicans in the US does not constitute official Mexican interference in US affairs.
I'm not sure what you meant by the remark "Most of the guns from the US to Mexico is moved by the same people that move the drugs......." Well, I am still convinced that there is an exchange of arms from American criminals in trade for drugs from Mexican criminals. I could not delineate the precise chain of handling. There are, of course, other possible weapons suppliers to Mexican cartels and gangs. However, since it is no secret that there are criminal individuals and organizations in the US who are in the arms trade, and since the US is the major consumer of drugs, it stands to reason that criminal transactions involving the trade of arms from the US in exchange for drugs funneled through Mexico would be an expected situation. This is not to say that Mexican criminals may not have other sources for weapons, nor is it to say that US criminals may not have other sources for drugs. I am told that heroin, for example, often does not go through the same channels or chain of handling as does cocaine. My first guess as to which nation is the great heroin provider would have been Afghanistan, but some sources tell me that this Afghanistan product rarely reaches the US. I guess it gets gobbled up by Europe before arriving in the US.
Does anybody happen to know the most likely national source of heroin in the US?
Wild West, you are quite right about Mexico having it's own problems with addicts. I think, however, it is not nearly so common as in the US. This does not mean that I think either country is full of good guys or bad guys. I suspect that one factor that makes cocaine less popular in Mexico is that people simply can't afford it.
Many years ago, I lived for a while in Durango, Mexico. In those days, methamphetamines were popular in the US and they could be purchased in pharmacies without a prescription in Mexico. However, this seemed to appeal only to the visiting Americans who crowded into the pharmacies ordering Dexedrine, diet pills of all flavors, and other amphetamine-related treats. The Durango citizens looked on all this with curiosity and amusement, but couldn't imagine why pills would be so popular among Americans. Again, I'm sure that one factor guiding the Mexican away from buying "recreational drugs" was economics. Americans showed up for two-week vacations carrying more money than the locals of Durango might make in a year or two.
For you to say that Mexico is "dumping its problems on the US" is a bit unfair. Although my numbers may no longer be exact, it was long known that the US economy was nine times stronger than Mexico's. Considering this fact, and considering that, whether we like it or not, you can walk back and forth between the two countries, it is hardly surprising that many Mexicans may look to the US for economic gain.
And, just as you say that it takes two to tango in the drug trade - those who sell and those who buy; I feel the same way about the employment in the US of undocumented Mexicans. If Americans were really serious about wanting to eliminate undocumented Mexican labor, they would QUIT HIRING undocumented Mexican labor. If I were an American who felt that my job was taken by an undocumented Mexican, the person I would attack would be the employer - not the poor guy who is just taking a job because, like all of us, he needs the money. American anger at undocumented Mexican workers in the US is misdirected. Don't make it "open season" on Mexican people who are just trying to make a buck by being underpaid; rather, go slap some sense into the people doing the hiring. I guess that idea is unpopular because it makes too much sense. Americans would rather complain about "all these Mexicans taking our jobs" rather than complain about the American employers who are giving the jobs to Mexicans. Must be the influence of Lou Dobbs or some similar idiot.
And, finally, Wild West Dude, your comment "And as of greed and corporations, that is a worldwide problem with multi-nationals in not only in the USA but Mexico as well. THe 21st century is a whole different ball game." should be printed and framed. In fact, it could be the beginning of an entire forum of discussions that would simply include the US and Mexico. All these multinational corporations are doing exactly what we would expect them to do: They are setting up their businesses in countries where labor is cheaper and standards are lower. This harms the workers of the US, Mexico, Germany, France, Sweden and every other nation where people depended on decent jobs to make a decent living.
I've noticed that things that were once made in either the US or Mexico are now stamped with "Made in China" or "Made in Thailand" or "Made in Malaysia." In the meantime, the middle class of the US is losing jobs and homes, and the poor of Mexico keep getting poorer.
But such globalization issues are probably more appropriate to another forum.
Off topic, but I don't want to log out without mentioning that my thoughts and prayers are with the people of Haiti. We of Juarez know the horror of having lost or having missing relatives and loved ones, and we wish all the best to those of you who still have hope, and all the comfort and strength possible for those of you who have suffered injuries or losses. We have to all hang on for a brighter future.
Fact 90% if not all weapons used by mexican drug cartels are american made
fact most of the "dangerous" drugs such as cocaine and heroine are brought in to be sold to the drug addicted american population. The drug cartels saw that void for drugs by amerivcans and filled it. The recent cartel wars are due to the fact that the border was divided by drug cartel each respecting their own turf, now with the falling out of alliances within the "narcos" (mexican drug kingpins) the mexican mafia backed surenos from the border cities such as san diego, and el paso are trying to seize control of the borders now dont get confused these gangsters as well as the mexican mafia are native born us citizens usually 2nd or 3rd generation. In fact most sureno (eme) gangs dont allow "paisas" or illegal mexicans to enter the gang.
I agree with you that the US has done about all that reasonably should be done about controlling its borders. We all tend to forget about boats and planes when we discuss the large range of the Mexican border, but I actually believe the US has overdone protecting the land border - at least between Juarez and El Paso....
Although you may believe that the only dream and motive that every Mexican has is to get into the US and stay there, you are wrong. The vast majority of Mexicans crossing from Juarez to El Paso want nothing more than to go shopping. So the extreme scrutiny of the tens of thousands crossing the bridges does little more than slow down how quickly the El Paso merchants can earn money from Mexican shoppers. Some shoppers have become so exasperated by the long waits and scrutiny that they have simply given up on El Paso shopping visits....
This brings up another point that I wish I could get across to all Mexicans and all Americans: There is no such thing as a Mexican "race," and there is no such thing as an American "race." Both nations have a Heinz 57 varieties mix of races.
I suppose I agree with you that the users of drugs are not "more" to blame than the providers of drugs, but, to me, the logic is inescapable that if people quit using drugs, other people would have to quit selling drugs. On the other hand, placing more blame on the providers is like blaming the bartender for people who drink too much. I guess that in fact, some areas hold the bartender responsible for the condition of the drinker. But I'm more inclined to say that the person who orders the drink is the most responsible for drinking too much. And the same applies to drug consumption.
But such globalization issues are probably more appropriate to another forum.
It's hard to see how anyone can claim the USA has done much about the border between El Paso and Juarez when it's the entry port for so many illegals and human traffickers. It's not at all difficult for illegals and the Mexican plates delivering kids to all the schools around El Paso makes it obvious that there is little control over even the abuse of the taxpayers here who must pay for so many non-resident students.
As far as the shoppers - yes, again that's something about money but I think it's kind of bad people would rather sit in traffic for 3 or 4 hours rather than support the stores on their own side of the border. Wouldn't spending some of their money in Juarez help Juarez a little?
As far as Mexican being a race, it was actually Mexicans (livng of course in the USA) that started that notion. They are the ones saying that Mexicans are taking back the USA, that whites and blacks should leave, the Aztlan types, and of course there are the La Raza types, and La Raza is certainly all about race, certainly isn't about all Americans or illegals of every ethnicity.
Drug dealers make big money off addictive drugs for a reason, they're pushing candy colored crystal meth in our middle schools to get powerful toxins into our kids, and drugs have damaged our inner cities, destroyed many lives - the addict is a problem but the addict was purposely addicted by the dealers who care only about money. It's the greed of the drug traffickers that is behind the drug violence.
Even if you blame the users for the drugs, what motivates the drug king-pins to want control over so much of the drug trade? It's their immense evil greed that makes them want to poison millions of people in the first place, wants to have them murder their own parents for drug money which of course the drug trafficker wins. But even with drugs coming over the border, that alone doesn't explain why the big cartels kill the little guys trying to make a niche for themselves, or kill each other. It is all about their big greed for all the money, even though there is plenty of money for all.
One problem I think with Juarez is that it's distance from Mexico City and the government of Mexico and Mexico's cultural center and so it's gone it's own way and took the worst of both Mexico and the USA. The maquilas didn't help because they brought in hundreds of thousands of people who had no connection with Juarez and overwhelmed the infrastructure. The tax base of Juarez was already small enough but when it was a small city, it was manageable but with the influx of so many impoverished people, it was too much - and for that I blame the US and other nations of the maquilas.
But - also the problems of Juarez didn't just happen overnight. There were cars stolen from the US that were ending up driven by big shots of Juarez, there were the murders of the women - no one cared because they were poor. Many of the problems were left unsolved. So they grew and grew and now it seems out of control.
It's not helping now that the elites of Juarez are packing up and running to El Paso, closing their stores and restaurants, leaving servants abandoned if they can't smuggle them into the US. Too many act like moving to El Paso solves their problem but they don't care what happens to their own city.
Aztlan: I have no doubt that you are right, but we'll be taken to task to "prove" that the weapons are American "supplied," no matter where the weapons are actually manufactured. Although I am not involved in such transactions, a likely scenario is that American dealers trade large quantities of weapons for large quantities of drugs. This issue has come up before. Some participant on this forum tried to persuade me that the weapons in Mexico were supplied to the criminal elements by the Mexican military. This defies reason: If corrupt military personnel wanted large quantities of drugs, they would simply seize the product. They would have no need to exchange weapons for drugs. I have no doubt that, as you say, the vast majority of weapons are provided by American - or Mexican American - criminal organizations in exchange for drugs. Or, as you suggest, if the Mexican American leaders of organized drug trade in Mexico see the Mexican sellers or smugglers of drugs as their "employees," they would logically supply such employees with weapons as essential tools of the business. Our problem is to "prove" this to those who, through what I see as misguided patriotism, insist that American participation in the criminal activity is either negligible or nonexistent. I have talked with Americans who vehemently deny that the US has any degree of guilt in the "drug war" situation, even though it is a matter of record that the US leads the world as the greatest drug-consuming power. A major obstacle to sane discussion of the problems of Mexico, among which some are shared with the US, is that citizens of either country want to insist on absurd notions that all the people of one country are saints and victims while the citizens of the other country are devils and demons. This "good guys versus the bad guys" approach to discussing the problems affecting both countries creates emotional, superficially patriotic barriers to forming any clear vision of what the problems actually are, and how they can be dealt with. I can see, for example, that a great deal of the violence now going on in Juarez has nothing to do with cartels. The number of random Mexican victims of violence who have no affiliation with any drug trade has been dramatically increasing over the past year. Typical newscasters and reporters seem to have the idea that the violence could be stopped on command by a few cartel leaders. I wish the situation were that clear, but it isn't. At this point, as best I can ascertain, NOBODY is in control of the situation - neither government forces nor cartel bosses. The more I look at the situation, the more confusing it becomes. But, none of this alters your conviction that the weapons are American supplied, and I have no doubt that you are right. How do we prove it to those who think we say this simply because we are "anti-American?" From my point of view, facts are facts, and I do not use facts to either praise or blame either nation. I don't believe that there are any such entities as nations of good people and nations of bad people.
Malamute, We may just have to agree to disagree. I used to be a more frequent shopper in El Paso for the very simple reason that quality products are more generally available and can be purchased in El Paso at a much lower price than in Juarez. I don't think the El Paso merchants objected to taking my money.
I am aware that Mexican Americans and other Latino groups and communities are guilty of referring to non-existent Mexican and Latino "races." However, the same erroneous ideas about some "Mexican Race" tend to prevail among Americans as well. Again, I am not trying to engage in any contest about which nation is any better or brighter than the other. If you look over my posts, you will see that I have had very unflattering things to say about both nations. I am not much of a "flag-waving" patriot of any nation. When I see faults with Mexico, and there are plenty of faults to see, I don't deny them. I can be harshly critical of some aspects of both nations, but that does not make me anti-American or anti-Mexican.
My interest is in investigating the facts of the situations and brain-storming for solutions. We will not, of course, change the course of history by sitting at our keyboards and thinking with our fingers. But I like to think that every little bit helps. So if any good ideas come out of these discussions, good ideas can at least be a step toward positive action.
I have never seen any persuasive evidence that either the Mexican-American or Mexican presence in El Paso is detrimental to El Paso's economy. (There are figures that can be presented to support either side of the argument, but the figures are always manipulated and presented by parties biased in one way or another.) I find it strange that you object to Mexican shoppers spending their money in El Paso, and I think El Paso's merchants and retailers would take serious issue with your implied claim that Mexican shoppers are not wanted or needed.
I agree with you that it would be advantageous to Juarez if all of us who lived here limited out shopping to this side of the border. However, you surely understand why I prefer not to pay double for computer equipment and clothing and other retail goods in Juarez. Maybe you don't mind paying excessive prices when the same items can be had at reasonable prices, but I don't have that kind of personal wealth. Most people in Juarez are in the same boat, and they shop in El Paso to take advantage of the greater supply and lower prices of merchandise. I have no idea why, for example, a shirt made in Nicaragua and sold by Sears costs twice as much in Juarez as the same shirt would cost in a Sears store in El Paso. People who know these things have carefully explained the reasons to me, but I'm too dense to truly understand the reasons for it.
I'm afraid that your ideal of keeping Mexicans out of El Paso is not only unrealistic, but a bit unfair and unreasonable. I assure you that my visits to El Paso with my friends and family do nothing but put money in the hands of El Paso merchants. I am not costing you your tax dollars.
The controls already in place are, from my point of view, excessive and ineffective. The current controls do nothing but deter those of us who enter El Paso to spend our money in your stores and restaurants, while drugs and other contraband materials zoom overhead in planes.
You will gain nothing by making me wait another two hours for a full inspection and investigation on the US sides of the bridges when my only motive in going to El Paso is to spend money. In fact, subjecting me to more lengthy and thorough investigation and scrutiny will do nothing but cost you more money for the manpower and equipment required to slow me down on my way to your retailers.
I think we may be too far apart in our thinking to develop any productive dialogue, but I'll gladly make the effort.
Malamute, We may just have to agree to disagree. I used to be a more frequent shopper in El Paso for the very simple reason that quality products are more generally available and can be purchased in El Paso at a much lower price than in Juarez. I don't think the El Paso merchants objected to taking my money.
I am aware that Mexican Americans and other Latino groups and communities are guilty of referring to non-existent Mexican and Latino "races." However, the same erroneous ideas about some "Mexican Race" tend to prevail among Americans as well. Again, I am not trying to engage in any contest about which nation is any better or brighter than the other. If you look over my posts, you will see that I have had very unflattering things to say about both nations. I am not much of a "flag-waving" patriot of any nation. When I see faults with Mexico, and there are plenty of faults to see, I don't deny them. I can be harshly critical of some aspects of both nations, but that does not make me anti-American or anti-Mexican.
My interest is in investigating the facts of the situations and brain-storming for solutions. We will not, of course, change the course of history by sitting at our keyboards and thinking with our fingers. But I like to think that every little bit helps. So if any good ideas come out of these discussions, good ideas can at least be a step toward positive action.
I have never seen any persuasive evidence that either the Mexican-American or Mexican presence in El Paso is detrimental to El Paso's economy. (There are figures that can be presented to support either side of the argument, but the figures are always manipulated and presented by parties biased in one way or another.) I find it strange that you object to Mexican shoppers spending their money in El Paso, and I think El Paso's merchants and retailers would take serious issue with your implied claim that Mexican shoppers are not wanted or needed.
I agree with you that it would be advantageous to Juarez if all of us who lived here limited out shopping to this side of the border. However, you surely understand why I prefer not to pay double for computer equipment and clothing and other retail goods in Juarez. Maybe you don't mind paying excessive prices when the same items can be had at reasonable prices, but I don't have that kind of personal wealth. Most people in Juarez are in the same boat, and they shop in El Paso to take advantage of the greater supply and lower prices of merchandise. I have no idea why, for example, a shirt made in Nicaragua and sold by Sears costs twice as much in Juarez as the same shirt would cost in a Sears store in El Paso. People who know these things have carefully explained the reasons to me, but I'm too dense to truly understand the reasons for it.
I'm afraid that your ideal of keeping Mexicans out of El Paso is not only unrealistic, but a bit unfair and unreasonable. I assure you that my visits to El Paso with my friends and family do nothing but put money in the hands of El Paso merchants. I am not costing you your tax dollars.
The controls already in place are, from my point of view, excessive and ineffective. The current controls do nothing but deter those of us who enter El Paso to spend our money in your stores and restaurants, while drugs and other contraband materials zoom overhead in planes.
You will gain nothing by making me wait another two hours for a full inspection and investigation on the US sides of the bridges when my only motive in going to El Paso is to spend money. In fact, subjecting me to more lengthy and thorough investigation and scrutiny will do nothing but cost you more money for the manpower and equipment required to slow me down on my way to your retailers.
I think we may be too far apart in our thinking to develop any productive dialogue, but I'll gladly make the effort.
Does your opinion change about open borders now that it was revealed that it was a Mexican American from El Paso who masterminded the weekend massacre of Juarez students?
If you believe that it's American weapons and now apparently Mexican Americans that cause much of the violence, it would seem you'd be more in favor of control over the border. Criminals and killers exploit the open border for their own reasons, just like "El Rama" could live it up in El Paso, he could plan and commit any kind of crime in Juarez thanks to the border. Yes, it's people living in El Paso and other cities in the USA who have committed many of the crimes in Mexico and many of them are bringing the weapons into Mexico but that would argue FOR some kind of border enforcement.
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,458,197 times
Reputation: 1464
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute
Does your opinion change about open borders now that it was revealed that it was a Mexican American from El Paso who masterminded the weekend massacre of Juarez students?
If you believe that it's American weapons and now apparently Mexican Americans that cause much of the violence, it would seem you'd be more in favor of control over the border. Criminals and killers exploit the open border for their own reasons, just like "El Rama" could live it up in El Paso, he could plan and commit any kind of crime in Juarez thanks to the border. Yes, it's people living in El Paso and other cities in the USA who have committed many of the crimes in Mexico and many of them are bringing the weapons into Mexico but that would argue FOR some kind of border enforcement.
I believe that border control is a necesity, either the Mexican government get serious and starts to do something with the problems that we face as a nation, or something will happen, unfortunately the "leaders" of Mexico, those who have the power to make laws and enforce them have the congress kidnapped by their own interests as well as corporate interests.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
11,969 posts, read 25,563,870 times
Reputation: 12193
I actually agree with the OP: Americans really have no right to complain to MEXICO about illegal immigration or drug smugglers because neither would happen if US companies followed the rules regarding labor practices and if Americans would stop buying illegal drugs.
The most patriotic thing I do isn't flying an American flag or voting for some God fearing Republican: it's that I never ever have or will do illegal drugs and that I drive a fuel efficient car to reduce our trade deficit and improve our air quality, although those things are for a different discussion.
Fact 90% if not all weapons used by mexican drug cartels are american made
That's a pretty amazing fact considering that not even 90% of the guns in the U.S. are "american made". The U.S. is a net importer of guns and manufactures about 50% as many guns as it did in 1994.
This "fact" you mention is a misrepresentation of a valid statistic.
What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."
In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.
But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.
In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.
Oh yeah, one more tidbit in there, discussing the sources of these weapons.
The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
