If not for Castro, would Miami be like Jacksonville? (Havana: camps, extermination)

[karstic]

Originally Posted by jwolfer

I would venture to say the worst hoods in Miami and Jacksonville are similar. Both cities have a repuation for being unsafe

Not safe if you are in those hoods. In 1959-1961, Miami was under the process of becoming a large hood. Read about the panic of cross burning "patriots", how they destroyed OT.

[projectmaximus]

Originally Posted by karstic

Miami did not have anything to do with Jacksonville and Tampa. New Yorkers and above all, Jews, were always a tremendous influence that shaped the city.

For several decades spanning the turn of the 19th-20th century, Jax was the winter wonderland for New Yorkers. Two of our historic neighborhoods are named Brooklyn and Murray Hill in honor of their NYC counterparts. LaVilla, another urban hood, is coined "Harlem of the South" which is a common moniker used in a lot of southern cities simply to describe their black historic and cultural neighborhoods. However a historian in Jax has noted that for Lavilla there really were many direct ties of the prominent individuals in Harlem and Lavilla. At one time Jax was Hollywood before Hollywood, and several dozen NYC film studios built secondary locations in Jax. Anyway, these are the many ties that connected Jax to NYC long long before Miami grew into a large city. Obviously nowadays the NYC influence is much stronger in South Florida.

Originally Posted by jwolfer

Miami has many similarities to Tampa and Jacksonville. Not saying they are the same by any means but to say they have NOTHING in common is just not valid.

All of Florida was shaped very much by New Yorkers , and to a great extent Jews-- and not just New York Jews. The first synagogue in Florida was in Jacksonville in 1830s which like much of the South was founded by Sephardic Jews descended from settlers in colonial South Carolina, then NY Jews came later with the large European immigration (Bit of trivia the first Jewish senator was from Florida in the early days of statehood, David Levy Yulee). There are for sure larger numbers of Jews in South Florida today but to think Miami is the only city in Florida with significant Jewish contributions is a myopic.

Jacksonville was the gateway to Florida and until 1910 or 1920 Jacksonville was the states largest city, until Miami took over

Yes.

Originally Posted by Bobdreamz

The better question to ask is if Jax is so great why didn't it grow to similar sized metros in Florida? Why was Jax also eclipsed by Miami in terms of business as well ?

Yeah, I'd say most of the "blame" is with Miami's more southern location. Once Flagler's railroad extended past Jax it was game over. Also just the trajectory of political leaders has been mostly a mess.

Originally Posted by jwolfer

With that being said, there are many reasons for the lack of growth vis a vis other Florida cities like Miami

Good reasons. There are some other ones that are often floated around and while I think some of those stories are largely overblown or fabricated, there is some truth that Disney, University of Florida, and then my aforementioned movie studios, were all sniffing around the area but political leaders didnt see the long term benefits of having these enormous institutions in the city. In the case of the movie studios the Jax leaders actively drove them out...to Cali.

[WrongStreet]

Originally Posted by tallrick

We know that Miami started its decline in 1960 but it really went downhill after 1980. Castro flushed his toilets and sent the result to Miami. Now Miami has the most dysfunctional traffic, crammed in development and legendary corruption. Go to jacksonville and you get some of the same, but there seems to be a lot less tolls and better traffic flow, less homeless and low life ghetto suburbs. If not for Castro, the worlds longest lasting dictator would Miami have been a better place?

No, it wouldn't be like Jacksonville and it's arguable whether it would be better or not. Miami would have been diverse regardless of Castro. Miami is still the most popular and influential city in Florida, it's an international hub and gateway to Latin America. This is mostly due to it's location.


The only thing that might have made an impact on the trajectory of the city's growth is if there was no rise in drug cartels during the 70's and 80's.


The proximity of Miami to Cuba would have lent itself to inevitable immigration the same way LA has a large Mexican population. So Castro being in power really didn't matter.

[karstic]

Originally Posted by projectmaximus

For several decades spanning the turn of the 19th-20th century, Jax was the winter wonderland for New Yorkers. Two of our historic neighborhoods are named Brooklyn and Murray Hill in honor of their NYC counterparts. LaVilla, another urban hood, is coined "Harlem of the South" which is a common moniker used in a lot of southern cities simply to describe their black historic and cultural neighborhoods. However a historian in Jax has noted that for Lavilla there really were many direct ties of the prominent individuals in Harlem and Lavilla. At one time Jax was Hollywood before Hollywood, and several dozen NYC film studios built secondary locations in Jax. Anyway, these are the many ties that connected Jax to NYC long long before Miami grew into a large city. Obviously nowadays the NYC influence is much stronger in South Florida.



Yes.



Yeah, I'd say most of the "blame" is with Miami's more southern location. Once Flagler's railroad extended past Jax it was game over. Also just the trajectory of political leaders has been mostly a mess.



Good reasons. There are some other ones that are often floated around and while I think some of those stories are largely overblown or fabricated, there is some truth that Disney, University of Florida, and then my aforementioned movie studios, were all sniffing around the area but political leaders didnt see the long term benefits of having these enormous institutions in the city. In the case of the movie studios the Jax leaders actively drove them out...to Cali.

The famous pork choppers...

[angelscorpio]

It would be the same since it is in their veins.

[karstic]

Project

Florida and New Orlean politicians were the ones considered more corrupt during most of the 20th century. The worst era was prohibition, drug cartels were a laugh compared to crime.

[karstic]

Originally Posted by WrongStreet

No, it wouldn't be like Jacksonville and it's arguable whether it would be better or not. Miami would have been diverse regardless of Castro. Miami is still the most popular and influential city in Florida, it's an international hub and gateway to Latin America. This is mostly due to it's location.


The only thing that might have made an impact on the trajectory of the city's growth is if there was no rise in drug cartels during the 70's and 80's.


The proximity of Miami to Cuba would have lent itself to inevitable immigration the same way LA has a large Mexican population. So Castro being in power really didn't matter.

Not really, Cuban immigration to the US was at minimums and was temporary. Most immigrants were third country immigrants that stayed 2 years in Cuba and then they were not subject to quotas in the US. Many Jewish people, etc.

1959, Cuba was starting to cream tourists going to Florida through ferries, flights, catalinas and they were building an arch from Bahia Honda to Varadero that would comprise 150 kilometers of beaches, hotels, casinos that would end up cutting miami beach to cero.

Meyer Lansky built a superb hotel that was part of that project, The Riviera. All ended in 1959, which was quite a luck for Florida.

[WrongStreet]

Originally Posted by karstic

Not really, Cuban immigration to the US was at minimums and was temporary. Most immigrants were third country immigrants that stayed 2 years in Cuba and then they were not subject to quotas in the US. Many Jewish people, etc.

1959, Cuba was starting to cream tourists going to Florida through ferries, flights, catalinas and they were building an arch from Bahia Honda to Varadero that would comprise 150 kilometers of beaches, hotels, casinos that would end up cutting miami beach to cero.

Meyer Lansky built a superb hotel that was part of that project, The Riviera. All ended in 1959, which was quite a luck for Florida.

Yeah but you're assuming Cuba would have become a boom country from tourism, which it most likely wouldn't have. Just because it became socialist under Castro doesn't mean the alternative would have been some booming utopia. Remember, it was still under a dictatorship in the 50's, just not a left wing one.


Cuba rivaling South Florida in tourism would have been no different from how the Bahamas rivals South Florida now, I think you are overestimating the impact it would have had.


Perhaps Miami would be a little more diverse, but it still would have had many Cubans, and it certainly would still have a lot of Haitians and Dominicans.

[karstic]

As I understand, Batista was behind and also American promotors. Cuba was already a boom in tourism until communism. Maybe not many, 50.000 or 70.000, but the cream of the crop.

Better than Bahamas, c'mon.

I don't know about Haitians, or why Cubans would need to go to Miami under a capitalistic economy, they went to NY as I understand.

[WrongStreet]

It was a capitalist economy but not necessarily a free society, it became a dictatorship under Batista. The poor and working calls largely struggled, hence why there was a revolution.


The point is, just because a country attracts tourists doesn't mean there won't emigration from it.


Cubans would have eventually began going to Miami because it's so close and a port of entry. At the time of the revolution Miami was still a very young city and had a lot of growing to do.