[michigan83]

Also, most of the homes shown in the pictures are occupied. They're just old and need to be updated.

This is a good point. Even in the worst areas of GR, almost all homes are at least occupied. That's more than you can say for some other places.

[Remisc]

Originally Posted by skyl4rk

The photos are a realistic depiction of a neighborhood, and don't seem to be slanted towards bad areas. I could find worse neighborhoods if I wanted to slam GR.

Exactly. This is more than likely an average Southeast Side neighborhoods. There's probably nicer ones, and there's probably worse ones.

[Remisc]

Originally Posted by michigan83

This is a good point. Even in the worst areas of GR, almost all homes are at least occupied.

But, what condition are the occupied homes in?

In the city of Port Huron, 40-someodd miles north of Detroit, there's areas where the occupied houses are in worse condition than the ones that are boarded up. Are these areas of GR like that?

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by magellan

Everything you mentioned is subjective. What you can compare are actual NUMBERS. Detroit (city) in 1990 had about 1,027,000 people. In 2010, it has about 910,000. Most of those 100,000 people who left are black.

Grand Rapids (city), in 1990, had about 189,000 residents. Today, it has about 197,000 residents.

Whatever crack you Detroit apologists are smoking, you need to quit. It becomes so annoying the amount of denial that is going on.

The pictures you posted? I'm pretty sure I know all of those streets in and around Division and Franklin. Pretty much all of the streets you shot are within walking distance of each other (less than a couple of blocks apart). That's it. The boarded up buildings in the blocks near Wealthy and Division in your pictures? They're boarded up because they're getting ready to be torn down to make way for a development project that ICCF is planning in that area.

I'm so thankful though that you didn't get shot while taking these (rolls eyes). I also noticed that you didn't even get out of the car to take your pictures. I don't really believe that it's your old neighborhood, based on that.

You don't believe its my old neigborhood because I did not get out to take pictures? Hey....I am a black man....I'm lazy....lol. Aside from being a lazy black man......I don't know what getting out of the car (actually it was a mini van) would have added to the view.

Having said that you used Detroit statisitcs from from the last 20 years. Well....Detroits black population peaked at 786,000 in 2002. Hence, Detroit black population was still increasing while white exodus had been manifesting for over 40 years. In 1950 Detroit had nearly 2 million residents with 300,000 thousand of them being black. That means that appx 1.7 mill where white. Today there are about 120,000 whites in the city. Put another way. Detroits white popoulaiton is 7% of its peak while Detroits black population is at apx 90% of its peak (based upon 790k peak and recent black population loss from from 2002 to current). Hence, its clear that blacks and whites have either had different opportunities or impediments to moving and or different desires to move than do whites. Also its important to note that whites were looking down on the city of Detroit and moving out LONG, LONG before Detroits recent black population decline.

I don't know how you feel I am an apologist for Detroit. THe fact is that nearly every 80% or more black city in America has statistics like Detroits. Go to Gary Indiana, East St. Louis, East Orange NJ, Benton Harbor, Muskegon Heights. The black poverty rate in America is 3 times higher for blacks than it is for whites. THe black unemployment rate is twice as high. THe black rate of wealth is 14 times less for blacks than whites in the nation. Hence, it does not take a rocket scientist to see that a typical majority black city in America will be worst off than the typical majority white city in AMerica because whites have much more wealth and income than do blacks. Furthermore, when whites choose to abandon a city the job base and tax base is greatly reduced because whites have the greater incomes and own most businesses.

In regards to issues of crime, which you hinted at sarcastically because I took pictures from a van, when I left Grand Rapids there were over 30 murders that year. Most of those murders were black on black and I even had relatives on both end of those stats. Hence, with a black population of about 35,000 at the time, 33 or so murders amounted to a rate of about 100 murders per 100,000 population....which is extremly high because the city of Detroits murder rate today is about 45 murders per 100,000 people and the city is about 85% black.

So in short I am not trying to change peoples perception of Detroit. If you think Detroit sucks.....thats your opinion. Maybe life for blacks in Ameica sucks too, because I bet every city you think sucks in Michigan has a large black populaiton or majority black population. What I would like to here from white people is to hear whites talk down and denigrate an area or city that does not happen to be majority black. Blacks already know things sucks....that is why for the last 300 years there has been a racial struggle in this nation.....because things sucked for blacks.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by magellan

I don't have a problem with people showing the bad side of Grand Rapids either. What I have a problem with is an expose' making it seem like these blighted areas are the norm, when as I said, they're all within about a 3 block area (you can walk to all of them). Also, most of the homes shown in the pictures are occupied. They're just old and need to be updated. There are groups like Lighthouse Communities and ICCF who have done a lot in Southtown and Baxter to make those areas better.

Also Indentured, there are "middle class black areas" of Grand Rapids, including the areas around Ottawa Hills, Mulick Park, Ridgemoor area, and off of Fuller near City High. In addition, there are a lot of middle class and upper middle class African Americans in Kentwood and Northern Caledonia.

Hope that helps.

Those pictures are NOT taken in a 3 block radius. If you frequented the inner-city you would know that. Those areas of "middle class" blacks you mentioned is incorrect. Those areas ARE NOT majority black. Rather, those are INTEGRATED communities (for the time being......its the intermediat stage from turning mostly black....then property values drop and they become poor communities gradually). Just because you see some black people living in an area does not make it a black neighborhood.

Again, thats(those pictures) the world that I was most associated with. That is what I saw daily. Grand Rapids is a city of some 45 square miles (nothing is really that far apart) while Detroit is a city of 135 square miles. What I know is that as an African American, Detroit offers extrems that Grand Rapids does not. There are areas of exteme blight that are black and areas of extreme wealth that are black. I was attracted and inspired by the wealth, culture and opportunities for things to see and do for African Americans.

The way I look at it is like this: People are always harping on Detroits abandonment and decay as represented by run down neighborhoods. Well....if that is not born from the people who STAYED....but rather the people who abandoned the city. One cannot expect 900,000 people to maintain an infrastructure and housing built for 2 million.

[jackmccullough]

I lived in Heritage Hill for a few years (1979-1983), on Morris just south of Wealthy. I was also a lawyer at Legal Aid of Western Michigan and I spent a fair amount of time on Division St. and in a lot of the areas pictured in these photos.

These pictures look a lot like the neighborhoods many of my clients lived, and presumably still live, in.

I will point out that, whatever you have to say about the condition of the housing, it's not the residents of the neighborhoods who have decided not to keep the streets paved.

[detwahDJ]

Some of those pix could be turned into fine art btw. Especially the industrial bldgs.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by skyl4rk

I don't understand the antagonism. The photos are a realistic depiction of a neighborhood, and don't seem to be slanted towards bad areas. I could find worse neighborhoods if I wanted to slam GR.

Just curious, where is this picture taken?

Division just South of Wealthy. West side of the street. There's a small church that moved into the building on the far left, and apartments upstairs.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

You don't believe its my old neigborhood because I did not get out to take pictures? Hey....I am a black man....I'm lazy....lol. Aside from being a lazy black man......I don't know what getting out of the car (actually it was a mini van) would have added to the view.

Having said that you used Detroit statisitcs from from the last 20 years. Well....Detroits black population peaked at 786,000 in 2002. Hence, Detroit black population was still increasing while white exodus had been manifesting for over 40 years. In 1950 Detroit had nearly 2 million residents with 300,000 thousand of them being black. That means that appx 1.7 mill where white. Today there are about 120,000 whites in the city. Put another way. Detroits white popoulaiton is 7% of its peak while Detroits black population is at apx 90% of its peak (based upon 790k peak and recent black population loss from from 2002 to current). Hence, its clear that blacks and whites have either had different opportunities or impediments to moving and or different desires to move than do whites. Also its important to note that whites were looking down on the city of Detroit and moving out LONG, LONG before Detroits recent black population decline.

I don't know how you feel I am an apologist for Detroit. THe fact is that nearly every 80% or more black city in America has statistics like Detroits. Go to Gary Indiana, East St. Louis, East Orange NJ, Benton Harbor, Muskegon Heights. The black poverty rate in America is 3 times higher for blacks than it is for whites. THe black unemployment rate is twice as high. THe black rate of wealth is 14 times less for blacks than whites in the nation. Hence, it does not take a rocket scientist to see that a typical majority black city in America will be worst off than the typical majority white city in AMerica because whites have much more wealth and income than do blacks. Furthermore, when whites choose to abandon a city the job base and tax base is greatly reduced because whites have the greater incomes and own most businesses.

In regards to issues of crime, which you hinted at sarcastically because I took pictures from a van, when I left Grand Rapids there were over 30 murders that year. Most of those murders were black on black and I even had relatives on both end of those stats. Hence, with a black population of about 35,000 at the time, 33 or so murders amounted to a rate of about 100 murders per 100,000 population....which is extremly high because the city of Detroits murder rate today is about 45 murders per 100,000 people and the city is about 85% black.

So in short I am not trying to change peoples perception of Detroit. If you think Detroit sucks.....thats your opinion. Maybe life for blacks in Ameica sucks too, because I bet every city you think sucks in Michigan has a large black populaiton or majority black population. What I would like to here from white people is to hear whites talk down and denigrate an area or city that does not happen to be majority black. Blacks already know things sucks....that is why for the last 300 years there has been a racial struggle in this nation.....because things sucked for blacks.

Wow, changing the murder rate based on whether it's black on black or not? To show that Grand Rapids is almost as dangerous as Detroit? This is pure comedy. Keep it coming. There were a total of Nine (9) murders in the city of GR last year. That's 4.5 murders per 100,000 residents, for the mathematically challenged.

If you have some special place in your heart for Detroit, good for you. And I don't have a bad perception of Detroit because it's predominantly black. I have a beef with Detroit because it's one giant ****-hole bringing the whole State of Michigan down. OK, sorry, it's 85% ****-hole. There are half a dozen decent miles out of the 145 square miles.

As many people have said on this forum: you can't compare GR to Detroit. You just can't.

[Remisc]

Originally Posted by magellan

I have a beef with Detroit because it's one giant ****-hole bringing the whole State of Michigan down.

Unless you've been to every corner of the city, you're in no position to call it a ****-hole.

I live in the city of Detroit. In a very nice neighborhood. I have a beautiful home overlooking the Detroit River. I send my four children to a very nice private school, within the city, where they receive an excellent education. My proximity to downtown allows me to visit a world-class museum, or go to a Tigers, Lions, or Red Wings game any time I please. I can purchase the freshest food imaginable at Eastern Market. Me and my family can take a walk or bike ride on the scenic Dequindre Cut. And, not that it matters, but I AM white.

Also, I've never been the victim of a crime, other than my youngest son's bicycle being stolen from my driveway at nighttime.