[Cato the Elder]

Originally Posted by MIhome

degree,yeah.i think all of michigan's elected official's have a degree,and well do the math.So no a degree is not alway's the answer,common sense is.too many people have been shafted into believing they will not succeed without a degree.As for people like bill gate's,he dropped out of college,went on to become who he is,because he had enough common sense to know he could do better.Our founding father's,how many went to college?Albert einstien?So before you ride that horse,better make sure that saddle is tied down.

FWIW, Einstein had a Ph.D. No, a degree does not mean anything is guaranteed, but if you forego an opportunity to attend college on the hopes that you'll be the next Bill Gates or Lincoln, good luck to you. Both were very well-read, BTW, and what you would call self-educated. Why do I have the feeling that the vast majority of people who rip on college are sitting on the couch scratching their butts and watching Sportscenter and not reading Shakespeare and The Life of George Washington by firelight?

[Lola Granola]

Not to mention that Gates did attend college - Harvard, no less - for several years before dropping out.

And Lincoln was an attorney, and had studied law extensively.

Neither were uneducated by any measure.

If you can garner enough knowledge on your own to compete on an equal footing with those who did attend schools of higher education, more power to you. Very very few people have the self motivation or intellectual drive to get there without the guidance of school and degree program.

[suydam]

Originally Posted by rutha1105

What will be the new criteria for "success" when everybody has a degree?

I don't know. But I can tell you this...it won't be "ok, now that everyone has a degree, we want people without one."

The answer is: Regardless of what that measure will be, you'd better measure up.

[rutha1105]

Just so you don't think I am sitting on the couch scratching while watching soaps and ESPN-- I AM self educated beyond PhD's in MY subject of interest. I have a PhD from MSU who asks ME the questions and goes back to the lab to prove it. I have made $120/hr for doing my job. Unfortunately, the job trashes your body and you can't do it for long. Yes, A Lincoln passed the bar--BUT HE DIDN'T GO TO COLLEGE!!!!!

[lizziebeth]

Originally Posted by rutha1105

Just so you don't think I am sitting on the couch scratching while watching soaps and ESPN-- I AM self educated beyond PhD's in MY subject of interest. I have a PhD from MSU who asks ME the questions and goes back to the lab to prove it. I have made $120/hr for doing my job. Unfortunately, the job trashes your body and you can't do it for long. Yes, A Lincoln passed the bar--BUT HE DIDN'T GO TO COLLEGE!!!!!

And you are truly the exception. Plus how can you compare someone debating the merits of college to Lincoln? Our country was so much different 150 years ago. Might as well criticize Ma and Pa Ingalls for not sending their girls to school. We're not living on the Little House on the Prairie set.

Who do you think works the $10/hour jobs? People biding their time until what they really want to do comes along, people in school, people who like the flexibility of retail, people who didn't listen to their parents and people who decided it was more important to make money right after school than suck it up, be poor while in school and work hard for a good payoff.

Maybe you don't get to go to college right after school. Maybe you have to work while in school. As someone in this thread noted, you better be able to measure up to whatever the measurement is. Expectations of employers aren't going down.

[rutha1105]

My point is that of the thread... is college worth it in MI right now? Since I know plenty of educated people working all the jobs mentioned above (retail, $10/hr, waiting for something better, not even able to get an interview), there seems to be little point in higher education so long as you are planning to live in MI.

I also know somebody would bring up the "how can you compare now to 150 years ago" debate and to that I will reply--the more things change, the more they remain the same. Those that can think for themselves will prosper, those that must bow to authority and ask if they are "qualified" will not.

[suydam]

Originally Posted by rutha1105

My point is that of the thread... is college worth it in MI right now?

Unquestionably, unequivocally: YES.

It might be hard to find a good job with a degree....how about trying to find one without a degree?

As I've mentioned before, the debate over the value of college ended 30 years ago in other parts of the country. Michigan (as a whole) is still living the dream of the 60s where factory jobs paid well and you only needed a diploma to get one.

[MIhome]

Originally Posted by Cato the Elder

FWIW, Einstein had a Ph.D. No, a degree does not mean anything is guaranteed, but if you forego an opportunity to attend college on the hopes that you'll be the next Bill Gates or Lincoln, good luck to you. Both were very well-read, BTW, and what you would call self-educated. Why do I have the feeling that the vast majority of people who rip on college are sitting on the couch scratching their butts and watching Sportscenter and not reading Shakespeare and The Life of George Washington by firelight?

I like sportscenter,when i have time.I am too busy running a safety program for a 480 million dollar project with 1200 tradesmen to look after without a college degree,just hard work.Now i am at the point where safety director's who have gone to college call me for info..what would that problem be?oh,yeah not all answer's in life are out of a textbook fella's.

[Cato the Elder]

Read the posts - no one said that education was a silver bullet, but yes, it at least gives you more bullets to shoot with. Yes, there are immensely talented people who didn't get a degree and do quite well - some win the lottery, some can catch and dunk a basketball with one hand, and some are in the right place and invent something like Google. The fact remains, ON AVERAGE, someone with a degree will get much further than someone without one, even in MI. This post, and entire forum, reflects the polarized economy we have in MI between the white collar work force and blue collar work force. In this day and age, as the US leaves manufacturing for good, it's outright irresponsible to make young people think that they'll walk out of their high school graduation and get a job that pays $85k a year with benefits for turning a screw. Some people have "hoop dreams," and I guess others have "screw dreams."

[magellan]

Originally Posted by MIhome

I like sportscenter,when i have time.I am too busy running a safety program for a 480 million dollar project with 1200 tradesmen to look after without a college degree,just hard work.Now i am at the point where safety director's who have gone to college call me for info..what would that problem be?oh,yeah not all answer's in life are out of a textbook fella's.

Yes, they call you and not the 1200 tradesman working on the jobsite. So that means you are 1/1200 or .00083 of the workforce on your project who is "on the job" educated enough to answer questions about safety. That's less than .1%. Point proven. I'll take my chances with a college degree thanks.