[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by Bluefly

Capitalism, at its most efficient, does seek the most product for the cheapest cost.

There's a truth to that. However, the "cost" to manufacture a product is impossible to assess. For instance, although the upkeep of slaves would appear to be lower than the "cost" of hiring freemen, Smith thoroughly demonstrated how the "cost" of slave labor was actually more expensive.

The point is that "cost," as you use it, is a subjective concept that "LCD" doesn't necessarily communicate effectively, IMO, the myriad factors that would go into assessing "cost." For instance, would anyone of thought that switching me from annual to quarterly reporting would of been part of the cost of conducting business in MI?

I believe "capitalism seeks comfort" would be more accurate than "capitalism seeks the LCD."

Read the book. You might be surprised at what capitalism really is.

Originally Posted by bb

Manufacturing does come and go. It came and it went - not because of corruption, but because the workers demanded higher quality of life and began caring about things beyond their paychecks - health care, conservation, safe working conditions.

"Corrupt" as in:3.made inferior by errors or alterations, as a text. 4.infected; tainted. 5.decayed; putrid.

It can be a difference of opinions. I believe that if an individual (or group of) mistook their value in the economy, they became inferior compared to competitors, tainted with a sense of entitlement and decayed in regard to their ability to compete.

In this way, manufacturing didn't go. It died, and the life of manufacturing sprung up elsewhere.

Originally Posted by bb

If corruption were the culprit, then wouldn't all the of the corrupt third world regimes taking in our manufacturing for one or two dollars a day per worker be collapsing rather than rising?

Different use of corruption.

However, it's not "our" manufacturing. It's the manufacturing of the investors. If you're not a stockholder, it's "theirs."

[Sparrow_temp]

One of the reasons Michigan ever became the automobile capital of the world was location. It had the Great Lakes as a transportation system and it had Iron/copper ore from the UP and plenty of lumber. So, ship building and carriage manufacturing eventually led to automobile production. There's a lot more to it than that but the natural resources and the Great Lakes as a transportation system were an important factor then which made Michigan an idea location.

Now, I think Michigan's location actually works against us. There are tighter environmental regulations here than other states and the highway system is not exactly something we brag about here. There's also nothing we can do about the climate. The winters here are long, cold, and gloomy. With the invention of air conditioning and an advanced highway transportation system -- why not move industry south? Cheaper cost of labor in the south is also an additional incentive.

What does Michigan have to offer now over other states? I suppose we have affordable housing, a nice summer climate, and lots of lake frontage which helps for tourism but not for much else...

[deslok]

I read an article in the WSJ that said big auto in Michigan is looking to export more vehicles now then ever, since the value of the dollar is down. While this may be good news, it just keeps going back to Michigan relying on the auto industry to bring us back.

[zakian]

The creative class is the future of our economy, accounting for increasing percentages of the workforce. It extends across a wide array of industries and generally includes education-dependent or artistic career. They are the young people with money who are redefining the American Dream.

Well there is no creative class in Michigan, at least not enough to make a difference plus the fact that Michigan is now considered a "service state." Menial jobs. Please tell me where these young people with money are and what they're waiting for. Granhomeless is leaving the country again to try and create jobs instead of doing the smart thing and staying here. She doesn't have a clue.

[One Thousand]

Originally Posted by zakian

The creative class is the future of our economy, accounting for increasing percentages of the workforce. It extends across a wide array of industries and generally includes education-dependent or artistic career. They are the young people with money who are redefining the American Dream.

My suspicion is that the theory of the creative class being so wonderful is based on a similar love for one's own field as police and fire always claim that there are more of them needed, and teachers always claim there's a need for more of them and mechanics always say you need to use them and doctors always have one more test.

I think the theory of it being the messiah of the world is drawn up by people that really have no understanding of business or people in the real world (outside acadamia.)

Especially for MI. I don't see why people looking for some oasis would go to MI when the weather and Detroit are considered. Seriously, in Portland, OR, you really are an hour's drive to mountains and skiing and hiking and an hour from the ocean.

When you consider the nature of most of the work, it can be done from anywhere in the country... and outside... including India.

[kcam213]

Originally Posted by One Thousand

Of course you haven't considered it. You've been betrayed by the public education system that probably never mentioned Adam Smith, author "The Wealth of Nations," but you heard all about how FDR did you a favor by legislating socialism.

Smith gives all the answer in one of the most beautiful works man has known, but 90% of the nation hasn't heard of it... much less read it... and teachers deserve more money?

This is why, at the root, the problem is cultural. Americans don't know how to think about business.

Oh, you again... One Thousand! For your information... I didn't attend public schools... all education was private!

[kcam213]

Ah... Found it! The "ignore" button.

[stock66]

Originally Posted by Bluefly

As for the OP's point - I think you're WAY off on the problems of Michigan. You're falling into the trap of blaming global trends that have persisted since about the 1960s on two people who happen to be at the helm today - one of which is in a little sex scandel. Actually, Michigan was just ranked one of the best run governments in the country (B+ I believe).

No... the problems are far more indemic of the culture that is just waiting for 1945 to return when people could make huge salaries and retirement packages without an education and hoping someone in government can pull that miracle off. When they don't, people start blaming them rather than themselves.

Bluefly is correct. Don't be shorted sighted and think that Michigan's problems are the result of the current administration. Nothing that is going is particularly new. Detroit has been hit with recessions every 10-15 years. Do a bit of research, it is more a case of everything old being new again.

Originally Posted by MIhome

Michigan's problem is people who are afraid of change and choice.It is understandable,when you become sufficient on one thing,and it goes away,you really are at a loss of where the next thing will come from,will it be good or bad,both the change and choice,one will always lead to the other.

Exactly, every time things go bad we hear about how the local economy needs to get away from the auto industry. The second things pick up the topic is dropped. Change is hard and scary but if you don't adapt you die.

As for weather, I don't buy it. Minneapolis has seen great growth and they typically have much harsher weather than Detroit. Often one persons version of "bad" weather is another's "good." Personally I loath Florida's climate but obviously many folks enjoy it. If there are jobs and money many people will overlook weather, even if the climate is not what they prefer.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by stock66

Bluefly is correct. Don't be shorted sighted and think that Michigan's problems are the result of the current administration. Nothing that is going is particularly new. Detroit has been hit with recessions every 10-15 years. Do a bit of research, it is more a case of everything old being new again.

Exactly, every time things go bad we hear about how the local economy needs to get away from the auto industry. The second things pick up the topic is dropped. Change is hard and scary but if you don't adapt you die.

As for weather, I don't buy it. Minneapolis has seen great growth and they typically have much harsher weather than Detroit. Often one persons version of "bad" weather is another's "good." Personally I loath Florida's climate but obviously many folks enjoy it. If there are jobs and money many people will overlook weather, even if the climate is not what they prefer.

I think weather is part of it -- other than jobs and the economy including government why else do people go -- unless you want to say there are only TWO main problems.

If there has to be THREE main problems, about the only one I can think of for a third problem is weather which makes heating bills high and some people would just as soon leave the dreary winter behind -- but obviously if heating fuel is inexpensive and jobs are plenty and high paying, that is not as much a factor.

With a good job, winter can be fun -- skiing, snowmobiling and vacationing down south but without a job, with no money, long, dark, frigid winter days are tougher.

[ean85]

Originally Posted by pistonsfan70

I'm doing a paper, as stated in another thread, and I've crossed off real estate as a problem in Michigan. I've already written two main points about the government problems (misspending, Kwame, Granholm) and the decline in the auto industry, due to outsourcing and various other reasons. I need a strong third main point. Any ideas would be great!

Thanks

I'm finding a great deal of "reverse agisim" in employment. Anyone hiring for a worthwhile position will only consider canditates with 5-7 years of experience. It makes it virtually impossible for anyone new to come in, even with a Bachelor's degree! We're being forced to leave the state in pursuit of positions elsewhere, which means a declining population, which means more job loss and businesses closing. Not hiring new, eager graduates (not to mention EDUCATED) is leaving Michigan with an aging workforce and nobody left to fill the vacancies they will be leaving once they retire in 10-15 years.