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Would it be easier to attract knowledge-based employers if the State improved the business climate and tried to showcase Grand Rapids as its premier city?
Flaunt it if you got it,if you can,but like you said about the business enviroment here and the tax,thats the biggest motivator to keep companies away,and that is no secret,when you own a company,you want to make money,not continually pay more taxes.I have never heard a company owner say"i went into business so i could make less money and pay lots of taxes".The good people of michigan,for whatever reason,have apparently no vested interest in the way business is run here,if they did,they would have surely already taken this overbearing tax plight on companies to the politicians and told them to scrap this current plan,it does not work and it is costing jobs.
Please stop drinking the Education Kool-Aid. A great many college-educated people, including talented people with advanced degrees and professional degrees are also either out-of-work or underemployed-and-involuntarily-out-of-field. (The latter often lose the value of their expensive college educations since employers discriminate against people who end up unemployed or involuntarily-out-of-field.)
Contrary to popular belief, MBAs and lawyers are a penny-a-dozen and we have a large glut of Ph.D. scientists. We also have too many computer programmers and IT people (jobs offshored to India or China or filled by foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas with Americans often being made to train their replacements). I have also read that we even have an oversupply of (!!!) engineers in various engineering areas. We also have an oversupply of people in just about every other field other than perhaps nursing (where people are already rushing into and flooding the field) and being a physician (where the number of people able to enter the field is kept artificially low relative to the number of people who are trying to break down the doors to become doctors).
So please stop drinking the Education Kool-Aid. Expensive education and training for non-existent job positions is NOT the solution to our nation's unemployment and underemployment problems. (What good is a college degree and student loans if you can't find a worthwhile job with it?) Rather the solution to our economic problems will require economic solutions, such as questioning the value of "free trade", foreign outsourcing, the maintenance of a trade deficit, and mass immigration.
Each time I run across this particular argument of "education=nothing" I must ask some basic questions, and in your case..a really big question. Your last thought leads us to believe that all the problems of our economy lie within outsourcing, deficits, and immigration. Yes, some of those are problems, however, the PEOPLE that write POLICY (which changes our lives) most always hold advanced degrees, in addition to years of specialized training and (yes more education) to obtain their positions. So shall we begin to tackle the massive problems of our society ignorantly?
Now that we know that knowledge=power...how can the US ascertain its position as a world power by telling its residents to drop out of our Universities like flies? Shall we continue to let the rest of the world surpass us in every arena? Lack of education would certainly be a good way to let this happen.
Although I'm not certain where I admittedly stated that college grads were recession proof, years of government studies have shown that higher education=higher income, in all occupations. Its no surprise that we have unemployed people of all educational levels at the current time, but touting that education=nothing is certainly unitelligable, if not sour koolaid. Your second paragraph does nothing but reiterate that in severe recessions unemployment occurs across all strata of society, it does not however, provide a solution to the problems at hand. I'm not sure where your data was extracted to back such claims as "Contrary to popular belief, MBAs and lawyers are a penny-a-dozen and we have a large glut of Ph.D. scientists" which I find incredible (given only 23% of the nation holds a BA, and under 8% hold PhD's). Even more extraordinary is your claim of "scientists" which at the PhD level is even more rare...on the order of less than 5% of our national population.
But once again, we find ourselves at a stand still with your ideas... " (What good is a college degree and student loans if you can't find a worthwhile job with it?)"....well, we must go back to the individuals who write policy. Yes, instead of blaming those who run the country, it will take the thoughts of many to solve the problems that face us, the fostering of new visions and ideas that will be acquired with advanced educations. Technologies, medicines, new industries...all will not fall out of the sky without it.
Perpahs a review of the mounds of data at U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics would help you change your mind regarding the importance of higher education and the future of your country.
Cheers!
Last edited by MittenDweller82; 04-23-2009 at 06:41 PM..
Reason: sp
Each time I run across this particular argument of "education=nothing" I must ask some basic questions, and in your case..a really big question. Your last thought leads us to believe that all the problems of our economy lie within outsourcing, deficits, and immigration. Yes, some of those are problems, however, the PEOPLE that write POLICY (which changes our lives) most always hold advanced degrees, in addition to years of specialized training and (yes more education) to obtain their positions.
Now that we know that knowledge=power...how can the US ascertain its position as a world power by telling its residents to drop out of our Universities like flies? Shall we continue to let the rest of the world surpass us in every arena? Lack of education would certainly be a good way to let this happen.
Although I'm not certain where I admittedly stated that college grads were recession proof, years of government studies have shown that higher education=higher income, in all occupations. Its no surprise that we have unemployed people of all educational levels at the current time, but touting that education=nothing is certainly unitelligable, if not sour koolaid. Perpahs a review of the mounds of data at U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics would help you change your mind regarding the importance of higher education and the future of your country.
Cheers!
I'm not the poster to whom you were responding, but I didn't think his/her (?) point was that "education=nothing." I for one believe that higher education is valuable for its own sake, even the much-maligned humanities and social sciences. But education is being promoted by our government - on both the state and national level - as being the cure for turning around our economy, and it's not as simple as that. It is true in the sense that we need a more educated population, as we are seen as having huge disadvantages compared to other countries particularly in math/science/technology. This is often just as much due to a deficiency in our secondary school systems as to a lack of higher education. One of the biggest reasons there are so few people going into hard sciences at the college level is because the high school level is preparing students so poorly for higher math and science.
It may be statistically true that over a lifetime, those with college degrees earn more than those with high school or less. But that also looks at more of a historical trend - it doesn't say what will happen to the people who are now graduating from college with lower salaries than those with only a high school education. For example, I can count on both hands the number of people I know personally who got a master's degree and are teaching at an adjunct level, making <$20,000 a year. (When you get paid $2200 a class and are usually only allowed to teach 2 classes per semester...) They have looked for other types of work and not been able to find it. We now have a much higher percentage of adults with college degrees than we did a couple decades ago, when the economic data of college grads was being calculated. In that time we've also lost thousands of jobs to outsourcing, individuals from other countries coming to work here on H-1B visas, etc - when you combine a higher number of college graduates with a lower availability of jobs, I think we will see the lifetime salary gap between educational levels begin to shrink in coming decades unless something changes. In fact, I think that the trend will be for US salaries at all educational levels to shrink to bring us in line with the rest of the world. Those with degrees will still likely earn more than those without, but the college-grad salaries may become low enough that it doesn't justify the student loans anymore.
Needing a more educated society may be true on a macro or "big picture" level, but there are thousands of degree-holders like me who are significantly underemployed. That's not saying that the degree was worthless - but that it may not have the same economic payoff that society said it would, nor is it necessarily going to be what turns around the economy.
Last edited by wanderer74; 04-23-2009 at 06:39 PM..
One link about the glut of scientists - this one says that there are roughly twice as many people with graduate degrees in the sciences than are actually needed. Also look at the stated salaries for a postdoctorate in the sciences - $27K-$35K a year. You can make that much as a fast food manager with no college education.
Another article that says much the same thing - that despite the common statement that we don't have enough scientists and engineers, we actually don't have enough good jobs for the ones we have - and also points out the low salaries and poor working conditions, particularly when measured against the level of qualifications needed.
That's just a start...if you do a google search for "glut of MBAs" or "glut of lawyers" you will see much the same thing. (In fact, one site I saw actually said that the high rate of frivolous lawsuits in the US is driven by our oversupply of lawyers, who need something to do! Whether that's true or just cynical, it's an interesting thought.) Furthermore just because the unemployment statistics show that those with advanced degrees have a lower rate of unemployment, that does NOT mean that all is well. A 3% unemployment rate for a PhD doesn't mean that the other 97% are gainfully employed in a job that requires their level of education...it just means that they're working, period. An adjunct professor earns a very part-time income and usually with no benefits, but technically they're employed.
In fact I have found that most job fields requiring any advanced degree have fewer job openings than qualified candidates. The library field is one example - for a number of years various sources were saying there was going to be a drastic shortage of librarians because the majority of them were nearing retirement age, so thousands of people went for their master's in library science...only to find out that, whoops, maybe that "impending shortage" was just a bit overstated since fewer numbers were retiring and jobs were being cut due to funding. There are relatively few job fields requiring any advanced education, particularly outside of the health care field, where there is a greater demand for workers than supply.
One link about the glut of scientists - this one says that there are roughly twice as many people with graduate degrees in the sciences than are actually needed. Also look at the stated salaries for a postdoctorate in the sciences - $27K-$35K a year. You can make that much as a fast food manager with no college education.
Another article that says much the same thing - that despite the common statement that we don't have enough scientists and engineers, we actually don't have enough good jobs for the ones we have - and also points out the low salaries and poor working conditions, particularly when measured against the level of qualifications needed.
That's just a start...if you do a google search for "glut of MBAs" or "glut of lawyers" you will see much the same thing. (In fact, one site I saw actually said that the high rate of frivolous lawsuits in the US is driven by our oversupply of lawyers, who need something to do! Whether that's true or just cynical, it's an interesting thought.) Furthermore just because the unemployment statistics show that those with advanced degrees have a lower rate of unemployment, that does NOT mean that all is well. A 3% unemployment rate for a PhD doesn't mean that the other 97% are gainfully employed in a job that requires their level of education...it just means that they're working, period. An adjunct professor earns a very part-time income and usually with no benefits, but technically they're employed.
In fact I have found that most job fields requiring any advanced degree have fewer job openings than qualified candidates. The library field is one example - for a number of years various sources were saying there was going to be a drastic shortage of librarians because the majority of them were nearing retirement age, so thousands of people went for their master's in library science...only to find out that, whoops, maybe that "impending shortage" was just a bit overstated since fewer numbers were retiring and jobs were being cut due to funding. There are relatively few job fields requiring any advanced education, particularly outside of the health care field, where there is a greater demand for workers than supply.
And while some of what you say is true I must refute most of it:
Comparing a field that requires an advanced education (such as Biotechnlogy, Physical Science, IT, etc), to the majority of openings that exist today in our drastically globalized economy, your really not comparing "apples to apples", instead, your comparing the everyday joe, to a PhD engineer.
"There are relatively few job fields requiring any advanced education, particularly outside of the health care field, where there is a greater demand for workers than supply." -
This is not true, and while medicine is just another field that has positions which require higher education, it certainly isn't the only field that does. So your saying all of the people who run our society and the adjacent positions surrounding them require no advanced training? Perhaps you should re-tune that statement. True, the number of positions in this country CURRENTLY OPEN that require a PhD would obviously be less than those that require a BA for example...but that is common sense.
This is not true, and while medicine is just another field that has positions which require higher education, it certainly isn't the only field that does. So your saying all of the people who run our society and the adjacent positions surrounding them require no advanced training? Perhaps you should re-tune that statement. True, the number of positions in this country CURRENTLY OPEN that require a PhD would obviously be less than those that require a BA for example...but that is common sense.
That is definitely NOT what I was saying. Obviously the people who run our society and the adjacent positions require advanced training. My point was that there are more people with that advanced training than there are jobs for them that require that training. Say that a particular town needs 100 x-ray technicians and currently has 95 of those jobs filled. 25 laid-off autoworkers decide "hey, there's a shortage of x-ray techs, I'll go back to college and get my degree to become an x-ray tech." Upon graduation is there now a need for 125 x-ray technicians just because they finished the degree? Of course not, there's only a certain number of each profession that an area needs.
Having more college educated adults does NOT actually create more jobs in itself. It just means that you end up with college education becoming a new benchmark for jobs that didn't require it before, such as an ad I saw today for call center representatives...the job paid $14/hour through a temp service and required a bachelor's degree in any subject. Does the work actually require a degree? No, and 20 years ago the degree wasn't necessary to get the job. But now there are enough people with bachelor's degrees looking for jobs that employers can require that. The education level of the labor pool changed, but the job itself did not. If our governor's recommendation to increase the number of college educated adults succeeds and we have an additional 100,000 college graduates in 4 years, does that mean we've created 100,000 new jobs for them just because they got the degree? Again, no.
Of course the education is still necessary for the higher positions. But the more people who get those qualifications, the more likely it will be that *some* of them won't be able to get those higher positions. It's a law of supply and demand: unless the demand increases, supply won't need to either. We're getting an oversupply of workers as the demand for them (jobs) is decreasing.
That is definitely NOT what I was saying. Obviously the people who run our society and the adjacent positions require advanced training. My point was that there are more people with that advanced training than there are jobs for them that require that training. Say that a particular town needs 100 x-ray technicians and currently has 95 of those jobs filled. 25 laid-off autoworkers decide "hey, there's a shortage of x-ray techs, I'll go back to college and get my degree to become an x-ray tech." Upon graduation is there now a need for 125 x-ray technicians just because they finished the degree? Of course not, there's only a certain number of each profession that an area needs.
Having more college educated adults does NOT actually create more jobs in itself. It just means that you end up with college education becoming a new benchmark for jobs that didn't require it before, such as an ad I saw today for call center representatives...the job paid $14/hour through a temp service and required a bachelor's degree in any subject. Does the work actually require a degree? No, and 20 years ago the degree wasn't necessary to get the job. But now there are enough people with bachelor's degrees looking for jobs that employers can require that. The education level of the labor pool changed, but the job itself did not. If our governor's recommendation to increase the number of college educated adults succeeds and we have an additional 100,000 college graduates in 4 years, does that mean we've created 100,000 new jobs for them just because they got the degree? Again, no.
Of course the education is still necessary for the higher positions. But the more people who get those qualifications, the more likely it will be that *some* of them won't be able to get those higher positions. It's a law of supply and demand: unless the demand increases, supply won't need to either. We're getting an oversupply of workers as the demand for them (jobs) is decreasing.
I'm not sure where I stated that educated workers=more jobs, which is a completely different animal in all aspects, educated workers however are the success in competing with other emerging societies across the world. Beyond the elementary aspects of supply and demand, the actual "fabric" of our society is changing, the way business conduct searches for candidates, considering the costs of training, retention, and realizing that through many scholarly and documented studies college grads are a less risky hire.
Obviously as employers shrink nationally, they have the luxury of asking whatever they wish of candidates, ,and with huge talent pools they will get it. This will only continue as our global economy shrinks, in a way, weeding out the weak candidates, creating a new benchmark for job seekers (as you pointed out with the entry level position). I'm not saying in any form that by increasing the sheer numbers of college grads will America prosper more, only that to compete with other countries such as Japan, China, Brazil, etc we do need higher education. I do think that we are amidst one of the greatest shifts you will see in our economy in the next 50 years, one that will require everyone to have more skills, training, and education merely to remain competitive.
Wanderer74
As far as I'm concerned you are right on the money.
I've gone back to school because it seems as though that is what employers are looking for...But what worries me is that by the time I have a Bachelor's degree...What will be the new "benchmark"?
No easy answers out there, also are these shortages something that flip flop over the years ? Do you think the health care system will eventually have too many nurses or will the I.T. field, which is my course of study, be overwhelmed with potential employees....
I do think that we will have too many qualified people for the jobs available....Predicting a shortage in 5-7 years would be valuable information. Then an individual could place themselves in the right place at the right time.
Wanderer74
As far as I'm concerned you are right on the money.
I've gone back to school because it seems as though that is what employers are looking for...But what worries me is that by the time I have a Bachelor's degree...What will be the new "benchmark"?
No easy answers out there, also are these shortages something that flip flop over the years ? Do you think the health care system will eventually have too many nurses or will the I.T. field, which is my course of study, be overwhelmed with potential employees....
I do think that we will have too many qualified people for the jobs available....Predicting a shortage in 5-7 years would be valuable information. Then an individual could place themselves in the right place at the right time.
In my opinion you will need a bachelor degree to work at McDonalds in the near future.
As far as IT Ive seen jobs posted that require Java experience that pay $8 an hour now. Thats disgusting. Also the same with MCSE's. Jobs that used to pay 70k now pay 20k
Im looking into the Medical field (HIT) and theres already too many people looking for work.
Also, companies wont hire people unless they have experience. So all these people who are graduating and in debt cant find jobs.
In my opinion you will need a bachelor degree to work at McDonalds in the near future.
As far as IT Ive seen jobs posted that require Java experience that pay $8 an hour now. Thats disgusting. Also the same with MCSE's. Jobs that used to pay 70k now pay 20k
Im looking into the Medical field (HIT) and theres already too many people looking for work.
Also, companies wont hire people unless they have experience. So all these people who are graduating and in debt cant find jobs.
Companies don't hire people with experience unless they're still, relatively, young. Try being 50 years old with experience and looking for work. No one will talk to you.
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Spoiled Koolaid
