[scottmi]

Originally Posted by Cliffie

I never said that blue-collar workers are evil. I said they cannot compete with blue-collar workers in other countries who can easily live on a tenth of what ours make. If you think big businesses have any loyalty to local talent, I have a news flash for you.

You're right --- blue collar jobs can't compete with blue collar jobs overseas.

So the solution is simple:

STOP FOCUSING ON BLUE COLLAR JOBS.

Workers and people in general need to get and act smarter. It would not shock me if in a couple decades the US' economy transitioned to a mostly service-driven economy.

We need to stop rewarding people who don't take the initiative to finish High School or even get AT LEAST a two-year degree with county, state and federal jobs that pay more than what degree holding people can earn.

We also need to curb the rampant abuse of the government assistance programs by people who really don't need it.

I'm not a republican and I'm not for rules "punishing" poor people...but I do get tired of hearing how things are terrible for the average John & Jane who smoke pot instead of paying bills, barely finished High School, pop out babies left and right and aren't reliable enough to even work part-time at a fast food restaurant.

I mean, c'mon...people work best when they have some fear pushing them along.

If all of us had our entire lives paid for, we'd accomplish absolutely nothing.

[LionsFan16]

The rise in unemployment is sad to see but it is a fact of life that Michigan's situation is going south..I was laid off from my job early this year and have been struggling to pay the bills with my new job working in retail. The past six months have been a unbelievable struggle and I always look forward to the end of the day when I can put up my feet, listen to music and relax.

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by scottmi

You're right --- blue collar jobs can't compete with blue collar jobs overseas.

So the solution is simple:

STOP FOCUSING ON BLUE COLLAR JOBS.

Workers and people in general need to get and act smarter. It would not shock me if in a couple decades the US' economy transitioned to a mostly service-driven economy.

We need to stop rewarding people who don't take the initiative to finish High School or even get AT LEAST a two-year degree with county, state and federal jobs that pay more than what degree holding people can earn.

We also need to curb the rampant abuse of the government assistance programs by people who really don't need it.

I'm not a republican and I'm not for rules "punishing" poor people...but I do get tired of hearing how things are terrible for the average John & Jane who smoke pot instead of paying bills, barely finished High School, pop out babies left and right and aren't reliable enough to even work part-time at a fast food restaurant.

I mean, c'mon...people work best when they have some fear pushing them along.

If all of us had our entire lives paid for, we'd accomplish absolutely nothing.

Well....why do you suppose that smart people in other nations, willing to work for a 10th of what smart people in America work for, will not eventually usurp employment from many smart Americans? Do you know that Engineering usually follows manufacturing? Do you know how much IT work is being done now in India?

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by scottmi

You're right --- blue collar jobs can't compete with blue collar jobs overseas.

So the solution is simple:

STOP FOCUSING ON BLUE COLLAR JOBS.

Umm...white collar workers can't compete with white collar workers overseas, either. Contrary to popular belief, many knowledge-based, college-education-requiring jobs have also been offshored or filled by foreigners on work visas (such as the H-1B or L-1, as in "My job was bombed by the H-1B")).

Workers and people in general need to get and act smarter. It would not shock me if in a couple decades the US' economy transitioned to a mostly service-driven economy.

The problem is that the "services" in the service sector are primarily low wage services.

We need to stop rewarding people who don't take the initiative to finish High School or even get AT LEAST a two-year degree with county, state and federal jobs that pay more than what degree holding people can earn.

Perhaps some of those people are overpaid sometimes, but would you agree that we, as a nation, do need to have an economy that is able to generate solid middle class jobs for people who either cannot find knowledge-based jobs or who don't have the desire or aptitude to work knowledge-based jobs? To paraphrase an engineer from another discussion forum, "If everyone obtained a four year degree then we'd have the world's smartest Walmart and McDonalds employees."

I'm not a republican and I'm not for rules "punishing" poor people...but I do get tired of hearing how things are terrible for the average John & Jane who smoke pot instead of paying bills, barely finished High School, pop out babies left and right and aren't reliable enough to even work part-time at a fast food restaurant.

Do you really think that most of the people who are suffering right now fit that description? Are you open to the possibility that hard-working, responsible, rational blue collar workers exist? Although I have a couple college degrees, I admire hard-working blue collar laborers because they tend to be practical, down-to-earth, and they can actually get real tasks done as opposed to paper-pushing. Just because I might be able to wipe the slate with them in a battle of intellectual prowess and writing ability does not mean that those people are stupid; many of them are good problem solvers when it comes to dealing with practical, hands-on real-world mechanical problems.

You say that we should stop focusing on blue collar jobs, but what do you propose as a solution? If everyone obtained a college education we would still have to face the reality that the economy can only support so many knowledge-based, college-education-requiring jobs. Or, to put it another way, if we were to double the number of engineers, the number of jobs for engineers at currently prevailing wages would not magically double to accommodate the new glut of engineers.

[scottmi]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

You say that we should stop focusing on blue collar jobs, but what do you propose as a solution? If everyone obtained a college education we would still have to face the reality that the economy can only support so many knowledge-based, college-education-requiring jobs. Or, to put it another way, if we were to double the number of engineers, the number of jobs for engineers at currently prevailing wages would not magically double to accommodate the new glut of engineers.

To be honest, I don't know of any perfect solution that stands a chance in heck of being accepted by the general population and especially not by the people making laws and in charge. To put it simply, I think America's true problem is its unofficial class difference.

When I say that, I mean there are only two types of people in America now --- the well off and the working (or non-working) poor.

The media and politicians would love everyone to believe that you can achieve whatever you want...but that sooooo isn't true. There's so much generational poverty and community abandonment that I'm shocked America's doing as well as it is now.

I think the reason why third world countries are doing so well in stealing jobs from us is that they have a social system setup totally different than ours. You know from birth whether you are destined to be rich or destined to be poor. The rags-to-riches stories Americans believe happens here are the stuff of fairytales over there. It's totally bizarre to us Americans since we are largely spoiled but because the way those countries operate people work hard to get by whether they're rich or poor.

The well off Indians come to US and study at universities here to become doctors, scientists, teachers and engineers. The poorer ones stay in India but are resourceful enough to learn trades within their grasp well enough to steal jobs from Americans. You don't see a bunch of poor Indians or Chinese people flocking to America looking for work. In fact, I'd imagine you'd be hard pressed to find a truly poor or non-college educated Indian who moved here anytime recently. You may not agree with thse countries and how these use their caste systems to take the work of "better" countries...but I don't see Americans taking jobs from either of these countries......So what does that tell you?

Imagine if you can an America where a rich and poor class divide was not unspoken truth or avoided topic. The banks made for rich people wouldn't even bother with poor folk and while the poor folk may work for the richer people in some capacity or another...besides getting a paycheck, they support their own kind - other poor people - with affordable housing, medical treatment, food, clothing, entertainment, etc.

It truly would be two separate worlds joined only together by a owner/worker agreement. Wouldn't it be great if low or middle income households on America could get a new house for $100k or less? What if car companies had two lines of vehicles --- one for the poor class and one for the rich class? Would that really be so bad? I don't know about you...but as long as my car gets me from point A to point B and doesn't explode in the process, I'm set. Looks and all that other jazz aren't really required. What if the average "poor" car price went down to $10,000 or less?

And what if education and college became cheaper for poor people? What if instead of state colleges charging $15k annually typically for R&B + tuition they could get that down to half or less? I don't need a brand new sports complex or alumni banquet hall building...lower college costs whereever possible!


I know this absolutely would never fly because too many Americans think they deserve the best. Most Americans --- even the poor ones --- can't be happy with an MP3 player...nope...they need the latest Apple brand iPod Touch version - accept no substitutes. If the government or any organization tried to limit the types of cars certain income earners could buy holy crap would people get up in arms.

I'm not saying I want to live in a country where a person's every breath is monitored and recorded....but it would be nice to know that the dream of perhaps actually owning a decent car, buying a decent house, taking care of a family and maybe even helping a kid or two to college might actually be possible......because at this point in my life and this point in America's aging process...I'm not really so sure what to expect in a decade or two.

We might all be speaking Chinese by the time we're old people.

[michigan83]

When I say that, I mean there are only two types of people in America now --- the well off and the working (or non-working) poor.

The media and politicians would love everyone to believe that you can achieve whatever you want...but that sooooo isn't true. There's so much generational poverty and community abandonment that I'm shocked America's doing as well as it is now.

I think the reason why third world countries are doing so well in stealing jobs from us is that they have a social system setup totally different than ours. You know from birth whether you are destined to be rich or destined to be poor. The rags-to-riches stories Americans believe happens here are the stuff of fairytales over there. It's totally bizarre to us Americans since we are largely spoiled but because the way those countries operate people work hard to get by whether they're rich or poor.

If so many Americans are poor, then how could we possibly be spoiled? Could it be that almost all Americans are actually wealthy by World standards? Poor Americans sure have a lot of cool stuff.

You don't see a bunch of poor Indians or Chinese people flocking to America looking for work. In fact, I'd imagine you'd be hard pressed to find a truly poor or non-college educated Indian who moved here anytime recently.

It's pretty hard to get here if you live in India or China and you live in poverty. Do they just hop on a plane? Especially if they were to come here illegally... how in the heck are they supposed to pull that off? It's not like they can just walk across the border.

What if car companies had two lines of vehicles --- one for the poor class and one for the rich class?

They already have that. It's called Cadillac vs Chevrolet.


I honestly find your post to be a little disturbing. Life ain't that bad here, brother. We have some issues, but we're basically an extremely wealthy country across the board. A lot of so-called "poor americans" own decent homes with electricity, potable water, a freezer and fridge, washer and dryer, 3 or 4 TV's, a car or two in the driveway, etc, etc, etc. So many people would kill to be a "poor American."

[tjay]

not everyone goes to college for a job that will make them rich, some people actually go to college for something they would enjoy doing the rest of their lives, and that may pay $30,000 a year (or less). i know, isn't that crazy? not living for money? but according to many, it doesn't matter what your passion is, you should let money dictate your life and how you spend your time, so that we can have a 'rich' nation and eliminate the poor. (eye rolly winkie)

[scottmi]

Originally Posted by michigan83

If so many Americans are poor, then how could we possibly be spoiled? Could it be that almost all Americans are actually wealthy by World standards? Poor Americans sure have a lot of cool stuff.

Not every single American is spoiled...but if you asked an American (myself included) to live the way an average person in India or China lives for a month...I think most people would find it radically different and not in a good way. Americans have been the leaders in social influence for decades...while this is cool for us in that we generally get the newest movies/fashions/cars/gizmos/etc. before other countries, it also means that most of us have a terribly strong "need" to get the next best thing.

That's why you're right...tons of people considered poor have iPods, iPhones, HDTVs, SUVs, etc. --- obviously we can't all afford it - look at all of our debt and money problems! Most lower class people live far beyond their means because they are bombarded with messages that if you don't have the next best thing, you're a failure. And the rich people/companies here know poor people live in a fest or famine mindset so they deliberately make products and advertisements that feed off their fears of being labeled a "failure." It's an issue of education, economics and ethics. It's true. Sad but true.

And you can't really compare Americans to other countries citizens using a term like "World Standards"...I mean, look at Japan. They are so different socially and culturally we have very little in common with them. Even the way they treat women is so very different than we do here in the US. Womens Rights groups would go bonkers over there. Because of the way that country views production, work, pride in one's family, security and company/means of living Japan became a world leader in many industries after losing in a major war! And that's just one example.

Originally Posted by michigan83

It's pretty hard to get here if you live in India or China and you live in poverty. Do they just hop on a plane? Especially if they were to come here illegally... how in the heck are they supposed to pull that off? It's not like they can just walk across the border.

No - that's the point. RICH Indians send their kids or relatives here...NOT the poor Indians. They stay there because it's not economically possible for them to do so. Sure, it sucks. But if everyone's who's not in the rich class knows that's just the way it has to be, they deal with it.

Look at George W Bush. By his second term, the majority of Americans HATED the guy. People would have probably LOVED to have seen him impeached. But everyone knew it wasn't gonna happen. So they yelled a bit here and there and then went about their lives.

I think you don't understand the idea that people might yell but rarely act. If poorer Indians or Chinese people had a chance in hell of getting rid of the rich people, I bet they'd take it, thinking they'd be doing a good thing (afterall, they would be making THEMSELVES no longer poor in process, right?). But rich Indians wouldn't let that happen....just like rich politicians, most business owners and other well off people here in America would try everything possible to keep the poor from overthrowing them too.

Originally Posted by michigan83

They already have that. It's called Cadillac vs Chevrolet.

Isn't Chevy's cheapest car the Aveo? And isn't it like $13k or something? A lot of people make minimum wage or slightly higher (let's say $10/hr.)...even 13k for a new car is too much for them, especially when you factor in full coverage insurance.

Originally Posted by michigan83

I honestly find your post to be a little disturbing. Life ain't that bad here, brother. We have some issues, but we're basically an extremely wealthy country across the board. A lot of so-called "poor americans" own decent homes with electricity, potable water, a freezer and fridge, washer and dryer, 3 or 4 TV's, a car or two in the driveway, etc, etc, etc. So many people would kill to be a "poor American."

Yeah, the US is a good country to live in. Definitely one of the better ones to live in when you look at all the world's nations. But keep in mind that it's not like China, India, Korea or Japan are even geographically near us where a good deal of cultural, political and economic spillover/sharing would occur. They are literally on the other side of the world. Because of this, I think it's absolutely fair to say that it's very possible to have poor Americans who have crummy lives compared to richer Americans who have far more opportunities.

When it comes to American nice-ities, you're right. Turning a knob to get fresh water is a helluva lot better than carrying water from a well to your house...but if you lived over there, odds are MOST people around you would be doing the same thing. Maybe you'd hear how in a distant country even poor people have running water...but that's THERE and not where you are. That makes a world of difference.

So yeah, I totally believe America needs to officially say there are two classes in the country - a rich class and a poor class. I would love it if the politicians would stop p*ssy footing around the subject and just admit the middle class is extinct.

The sooner the country admits it's just like every other country in the world, the sooner we can all start working on solutions best suited for the different classes of people that have to coexist in the country.

[michigan83]

Because of this, I think it's absolutely fair to say that it's very possible to have poor Americans who have crummy lives compared to richer Americans who have far more opportunities.

OK, first of all... being poor and having a crummy life have nothing to do with each other. Do you really think that the "rich" in America are happier than the "poor?" They aren't. They just have more money. I bet there are studies that would show exactly that, too.

That's why you're right...tons of people considered poor have iPods, iPhones, HDTVs, SUVs, etc. --- obviously we can't all afford it - look at all of our debt and money problems! Most lower class people live far beyond their means because they are bombarded with messages that if you don't have the next best thing, you're a failure.

No one is forcing people to live beyond their means. That's also a fairly recent phenomenon here, and it's going to go away as we make our way through this recession/depression. People are already beginning to save more and waste less.

The truth is that, even if you are "stuck" at a low income, the lifestyle of living beyond your means, having things that you can't afford, etc, is a personal choice. I think the miserable existence that many Americans find themselves in currently is more of a cultural problem than a structural one. If our economy provides you with 30k per year in income, no one is forcing you to spend all of it on credit card interest, satellite TV, car payments (when a $2500 used one would work fine) expensive clothes, ipods, etc. 30k, if spent wisely, can give you a happy, albeit simple, life. One that would be envied by so many around the World.

No one ever said that class mobility is an easy thing to achieve. But it's possible here, and maybe moreso than anywhere else. We don't have a right to move up, and I think that's the aspect that is lost on many currently. You still have to work your arse off to do it. If you look at our nation's history... people didn't move up the ladder by simply being born and being handed a class-upgrade ticket. They started businesses, took chances, built wealth over time, saved, lived within their means, etc. About 80% of American millionaires are first-generation millionaires (not old money!).

I'm going to stick by my claim that, when looking at things on a global scale, very few Americans are living anything less than a "middle class" lifestyle.

[Jwo85]

Some stunning news coming out.

one out of three working-age Michigan adults -- 1.7 million people -- lack the basic skills to get a family-sustaining job. It also shows that 44% of all Michigan's adults read below a sixth-grade level

Time to break cycle of no skills, no jobs | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press