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Oh well.
As far as attitudes towards the cities, almost every city in every state has the exact same problem with image to it's outstater's. Not saying it's right or fair, but it is what it is, and is likely to never change.
Take heart in knowing that insular, clueless stereotypes go both ways.
The things some city people say of rural people are actually quiet comical.
AM radio. Group think.
Yeah.
Okay.
News flash from someone who has spent a great deal of time in both environments: cultures are different, but people are still just people anywhere you go. You'll find just as much diversity of opinion in podunk Alabama as you do in big cities. Maybe more, perhaps. Let us not forget those big city precincts that went 100% for Obama. Now that's what I call group think.
The paranoia is hardly limited to Wisconsin. I live in Tennessee's big bad city. Same story. Plenty of neighborhoods are sincerely scary. But there are also plenty of middle class and rich neighborhoods that are as safe as anywhere can be. But the suburban and rural folks are just convinced that the whole town is overrun by gangs and murderers. And of course the city people have their share of misconceptions about suburbia as well. In both cases, it seems like everybody is out to prove they're better than those "other" people. And that's really sad.
I just recognized this about Neighborhood Scout's crime data. It ranks the City of Milwaukee as less safe than the City of Chicago. Giving Milwaukee an index number of 5 and Chicago one of 8. Meaning Milwaukee is safer than 5% of the cities in the United States and Chicago is safer than 8%.
It also rates chances of being victim of violent crime in Chicago 1 in 97 and in Milwaukee 1 in 100. Not grand difference.
Atlanta, Detroit, Memphis, and Camden are far worse. Your chances in Detroit are something like 1 in 44. In Atlanta something like 1 in 65.
L.A. and NYC are rated safer, however, I'm quite confident their are neighborhoods in L.A. like Beirut and neighborhoods in NYC you'll get done in in.
Plus, what's safe? That's why I mentioned in a different thread, years ago, searching news on LOndon I got frustrated and angry, until I realized it wasn't London hiding news, the news papers online for the UK cover the whole UK, and Milwaukee on a daily basis was producing more news and insanity than the whole U.K. combined (with London in it). Search the news online yourself to see if I'm wrong. And that's just one city in the U.S.
And this neighborhood I spent a good portion of my childhood and teen years in. I had family that lived over there, so, I used to spend the night of their house frequently. The Park West neighborhood I guess they're calling it now.
This is the neighborhood that the Channel 58 News reported on those kids brawling on 24th & Locust. I used to be over there all the time. On 24th and Locust there is a corner store owned by some Arabs. Last time I was in there a few years ago the young Arab guy was telling us he and his peeps came from Detroit and Milwaukee and that neighborhood ain't nothing to them. Meaning, Detroit was a lot worse.
Also, Mr. Rogers used to own that store. He was a Black-American man but sold the store in the early or mid '80s. I'm old enough to remember as a small child a few black owned corner stores left. Gen X as small kids were the last generation to see the (remaining at that time, because there were more before we were born, s I hear) black owned corner stores. These young black kids now have no idea they ever existed. All they keep being told is, "Everything is getting better," which is a flat out lie. The only thing that has improved is that higher level insanity of the late '80s and early '90s have declined a good deal. But its still worse than when I was a young kid in the late '70s and early 80's.
If chances of becoming a victim in Milwaukee are 1 in 100, then wouldn't that mean there's a 99% chance you WON'T become a victim in Milwaukee? Hmmm....
The phrase "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" exists for a reason... it's because statistics are a very asinine way of looking at the world that takes culture and every other aspect of the human experience out of the equation.
The entire reason I opened this discussion with statistics is because those with prejudicial attitudes towards Milwaukee tend to justify their prejudices with statistics, so I provided stats that contradict the usual narrative. But I see that's just given agenda-driven people with too much time on their hands an excuse to find whatever numerical data they can find to discredit my main point.
When I invited people into this discussion who didn't agree with me and said they'd probably end up proving my point, and damned if Supine hasn't done exactly that... using nothing but statistics to prove what a sh*t hole Milwaukee is.
Well guess what, buddy? THAT'S NOT ALL THERE IS TO MILWAUKEE!!!
I mean, if there's a 99 to 1 ratio of non-victims in Milwaukee, and you've "proven" that a handful of neighborhoods are really, REALLY bad, that would mean that the places in Milwaukee that aren't those neighborhoods must be really, REALLY safe. I mean, a greater than a 99 percent chance of not becoming a victim of violent crime... sounds pretty damn safe to me!
But I digress because this isn't about statistics, this is about respect... or the lack thereof... given to the hundreds of thousands of people in Milwaukee who lead honest lives, yet still have to answer to paranoid a**holes who feel entitled to disrespect our city to our face.
I actually find it quite hilarious that everytime I make something even resembling a blanket statement about the culture of other towns in Wisconsin, I get called out as being unfair to those places. Yet how often do people make statements like those about Milwaukee? Especially when this city is MASSIVE compared to everywhere else in Wisconsin. So it's not fair to make such statements about towns of 10,000 or 50,000 or 90,000; but when it comes to a major city with over half a million residents, it's TOTALLY okay to paint everyone with the broad brush?
Does NO ONE ELSE see how backwards that is?
Milwaukee having a handful of neighborhoods that aren't so great, like EVERY OTHER CITY where the human population outnumbers the cow population, does NOT define the entire city.
Does the Third Ward fit those stereotypes? Does Lake Drive? Does Brady Street? Does ANYWHERE on the East Side? Does Bay View? Does Walker's Point? Does Riverwest? Does Washington Heights? Does the Northwest Side? Does the Lakeshore?
(Sorry bigots, but just because some of those places I named aren't conservative enough, or straight enough, or white enough, or middle-class enough for your liking does NOT make them sh*t holes, let alone unworthy of respect.)
The places I named are some of the most densely-populated in the entire Midwest, and more than likely account for over half of Milwaukee's population. Yet how many outstaters who swear Milwaukee is so dangerous and scary could even tell you where those neighborhoods are? Or where ANYTHING is in Milwaukee that's not Summerfest or Miller Park.
BTW... have you ever noticed that the ONLY things out-staters like to do in Milwaukee are those are physically isolated from the rest of the city by freeways? Don't think for a second that it's a coincidence.
Oh well.
As far as attitudes towards the cities, almost every city in every state has the exact same problem with image to it's outstater's. Not saying it's right or fair, but it is what it is, and is likely to never change.
Take heart in knowing that insular, clueless stereotypes go both ways.
The things some city people say of rural people are actually quiet comical.
AM radio. Group think.
Yeah.
Okay.
News flash from someone who has spent a great deal of time in both environments: cultures are different, but people are still just people anywhere you go. You'll find just as much diversity of opinion in podunk Alabama as you do in big cities. Maybe more, perhaps. Let us not forget those big city precincts that went 100% for Obama. Now that's what I call group think.
Now THAT'S what I call a false equivalency.
You really don't think there's some SERIOUS ideological differences between, say, the mostly white, social progressives in the eastern half of Milwaukee and the mostly black social conservatives (read: churchfolk) to the north?
If Republicans are REALLY that concerned about their popularity amongst us dirty, unwashed (yet somehow also snobbish and elitist) city folk, perhaps they should stop slamming us and where we live every chance they get and try adopting a platform that doesn't alienate damn near everyone whose not a white christianist*.
*Not to be confused with "white christian"... many of whom have left/are leaving the GOP as it becomes more and more obvious that the party cares very little about feeding the poor, caring for the sick, and all the other things Jesus actually said to do.
If chances of becoming a victim in Milwaukee are 1 in 100, then wouldn't that mean there's a 99% chance you WON'T become a victim in Milwaukee? Hmmm....
The phrase "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" exists for a reason... it's because statistics are a very asinine way of looking at the world that takes culture and every other aspect of the human experience out of the equation.
Maybe so. One hundred percent is supposed to be a whole from my understanding. And 1/100 would come out to 1%.
I'm very weak in math, so, it's an area I'd be slow to disagree or agree with you in unless I understood the particular numbers involved better.
And I don't disagree with that famous aphorism about statistics. As I've pointed out in many threads, statistics are used rather erroneously in studies done on the genetic heritability of homosexuality and bantered about by liberals.
You can use statistics to "prove" just about anything you want.
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The entire reason I opened this discussion with statistics is because those with prejudicial attitudes towards Milwaukee tend to justify their prejudices with statistics, so I provided stats that contradict the usual narrative. But I see that's just given agenda-driven people with too much time on their hands an excuse to find whatever numerical data they can find to discredit my main point.
I think you're the one with an agenda.
Particularly you wanted to make Milwaukee look, as you put it, "par with other cities." By which I inferred you to mean that Milwaukee would have a rime index of 50 rather than of 5.
Your attitude also seemed dismissive to me as to what challenges and indoctrinations a young male growing up in "the hood" has to face.
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When I invited people into this discussion who didn't agree with me and said they'd probably end up proving my point, and damned if Supine hasn't done exactly that... using nothing but statistics to prove what a sh*t hole Milwaukee is.
I don't see how I "proved your point."
I provided the data from your own source that in fact correlated in with some of your assertions and did not correlate with some of your assertions.
The crime index of Atalanta compared to Milwaukee correlated with your assertion. But the crime index of Milwaukee relative to many other cities in the United States did not correlate with your assertions.
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Well guess what, buddy? THAT'S NOT ALL THERE IS TO MILWAUKEE!!!
I never suggested it was. Nor have I ever suggested it is better to live in New York City than Milwaukee (except maybe in certain professions), even though NYC is supposedly safer than Milwaukee.
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I mean, if there's a 99 to 1 ratio of non-victims in Milwaukee, and you've "proven" that a handful of neighborhoods are really, REALLY bad, that would mean that the places in Milwaukee that aren't those neighborhoods must be really, REALLY safe. I mean, a greater than a 99 percent chance of not becoming a victim of violent crime... sounds pretty damn safe to me!
Look... I've already stated in the past in other threads that there are neighborhoods in Milwaukee one might as well be in a different country, a safe area within a European country.
For example, my white grandparents lived around Pius XI high school. There are certainly parts of London and Paris more dangerous than there. In that area you are in probably one of the safest locations on earth. At least in terms of urban areas.
But by black grandparents lived on 22nd and Locust. Totally different environment. The difference between night and day.
And if you grew up in that area now termed the Park West neighborhood then you probably had/have 1% chance not to be victim of some assault or crime through the course of your years living over there.
I don't know how many times someone or some two or some group tried to rob me for my bike or something else between the Sherman Park neighborhood and Par West area. I actually had more problems in the Sherman Park area as a kid because my family members on Locust in the Park West area were either feared or respected. Plus, as small kid I didn't just "stroll" all over the Park West area.
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But I digress because this isn't about statistics, this is about respect... or the lack thereof... given to the hundreds of thousands of people in Milwaukee who lead honest lives, yet still have to answer to paranoid a**holes who feel entitled to disrespect our city to our face.
And if you grew up where I grew up respect came at the end of a fist or the end of a gun.
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I actually find it quite hilarious that everytime I make something even resembling a blanket statement about the culture of other towns in Wisconsin, I get called out as being unfair to those places. Yet how often do people make statements like those about Milwaukee? Especially when this city is MASSIVE compared to everywhere else in Wisconsin. So it's not fair to make such statements about towns of 10,000 or 50,000 or 90,000; but when it comes to a major city with over half a million residents, it's TOTALLY okay to paint everyone with the broad brush?
Well... I like Tomah, Wisconsin. Good people. Salt of the earth.
I'm ambivalent about Milwaukee and people from cities in general, like Chicago, NYC and so forth. Even though I'm addicted to the city and what cities offer.
While I can't speak in absolutes... I will say that in general, if I were in Las Vegas, and someone from Tomah, Wisconsin was there odds are you can talk to them reasonably to square away an issue or problem. Whereas if I'm dealing with some slickster from Milwaukee, Chicago, or NYC in Las Vegas I know it's a 99% chance the only way this SOB is going to respect my position is if I jam a .38 revolver into his mouth and let him determine the outcome.
You see there are no Crips or Bloods in Milwaukee. Not in any numbers. And its not because the local Milwaukeeans on the North Side had a philosophical debate with them about ethics and boundaries. They simply could not gun their way in.
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Milwaukee having a handful of neighborhoods that aren't so great, like EVERY OTHER CITY where the human population outnumbers the cow population, does NOT define the entire city.
Yeah, every city has its bad parts. And Milwaukee is no Baltimore, St Louis, or Detroit. It's not the safest place on planet earth either.
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Does the Third Ward fit those stereotypes? Does Lake Drive? Does Brady Street? Does ANYWHERE on the East Side? Does Bay View? Does Walker's Point? Does Riverwest? Does Washington Heights? Does the Northwest Side? Does the Lakeshore?
I like Riverwest in general. Certain aspects of it. Brady is awesome. And Bay View is an awesome place to live and raise a family. Bay View is great. Washington Heights is ******h too.
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(Sorry bigots, but just because some of those places I named aren't conservative enough, or straight enough, or white enough, or middle-class enough for your liking does NOT make them sh*t holes, let alone unworthy of respect.)
The places I named are some of the most densely-populated in the entire Midwest, and more than likely account for over half of Milwaukee's population. Yet how many outstaters who swear Milwaukee is so dangerous and scary could even tell you where those neighborhoods are? Or where ANYTHING is in Milwaukee that's not Summerfest or Miller Park.
BTW... have you ever noticed that the ONLY things out-staters like to do in Milwaukee are those are physically isolated from the rest of the city by freeways? Don't think for a second that it's a coincidence.
Anyway, that's all I got for now. Carry on!
A lot of Wisconsin does not like "Milwaukee" because it's code word for them to mean "black." You realize that already. And they know it too even if they won't directly admit it.
Wouldn't care to live in Waukesha. I'd prefer a nice area of Milwaukee. I'm partly addicted to the energy and pedestrian and vehicle traffic on the North Side in the Sherman Park area. And it has it's good days. It's not always jumping off with drama. But the drama will come. It's the price of living or hanging out frequently in the area.
But I'd prefer to live in a warm and safe area in some region like Southern France or Southern Spain.
Isn't it interesting that for all the sanctimonious rhetoric we hear spewed outstate about how Milwaukee is so dangerous and unlivable (or how many threads that get created here to ask "Is this area safe?"), the city doesn't have so much as ONE neighborhood that's so dangerous as to make a list like this? Isn't it interesting that while many of these same people think absolutely nothing of comparing Milwaukee to Detroit or the worst parts of Chicago, those cities managed to have multiple neighborhoods on this list while Milwaukee didn't have a single one?
But most telling is the fact that Wisconsin has such a high black male incarceration rate, yet the city where most of its black men live is actually, statistically speaking, quite safe. Sure, the AM hate radio crowd will claim that Milwaukee's lack of a neighborhood dangerous enough to be on this list is BECAUSE Wisconsin incarcerates so many of its black men… but if that's the case, why do they STILL insist that Milwaukee is such a dangerous city? Hmmm….
It seems to me that outstaters would do well to cut the crap about not feeling "safe" in Milwaukee; and start examining their own prejudices, paranoia, sheltered upbringings, isolationist tendencies, limited life experiences, anti-urban mindsets, and overall sense of entitlement in expecting places that aren't like where they come from to conform to what they're comfortable with.
Discuss away…. even if you disagree (because chances are, you'll end up proving my point).
So wait -- you find a disconnect between the fact that black men are incarcerated at a higher rate and the fact that there are no "most dangerous neighborhoods in the country" in the city? Did you consider that maybe none of the city's neighborhoods make the list because more of the troublemakers are getting sent off to prison?
While none of Milwaukee's individual neighborhoods made this "worst neighborhoods" list, make no mistake that the city as a whole still has a serious crime problem on par with Chicago's. Your city just happens to duck the scrutiny that our crime situation receives because 1) the same rate of crime makes for bigger overall numbers in Chicago and bigger numbers make for more juicy headlines; 2) the President doesn't call your city home.
Finally, if you think badmouthing the big bad city from "outstaters" is a Wisconsin phenomenon, you don't get around much. Downstaters hate Illinois, Upstate New Yorkers hate NYC (or at least used to), rural Pennsylvanians hate Philly (and Pittsburgh too if they're in SWPA), Michiganders hate Detroit, Ozark hillbillies hate St. Louis, and so on and so forth...
If chances of becoming a victim in Milwaukee are 1 in 100, then wouldn't that mean there's a 99% chance you WON'T become a victim in Milwaukee? Hmmm....
This is true, but only for a one year period. Each year you have that same chance. But it's more complicated, and depends on where you live and what race you are. If you are white, the odds go down that you will be a crime victim. If you live in a safe area, the odds go down further. If you are black and live in a "bad neighborhood", your risk is magnitudes higher that you will be a victim of crime.
If you're not a victim of crime, the question is how you let crime risk affect your life. Do you alter your behavior? Do you stay in after dark? Crime could be higher in a neighborhood like Metcalfe Park if it had the same amount of nightlife as Brady Street. The East Side could have almost zero crime if it weren't a popular nightlife destination.
As someone who has lived in both Milwaukee and Chicago, I behaved about the same in both cities. I went out, enjoyed my life, and was just little more cautious when driving through "the hood". In nearly 20 years I was only ever the victim of vandalism in either city.
So wait -- you find a disconnect between the fact that black men are incarcerated at a higher rate and the fact that there are no "most dangerous neighborhoods in the country" in the city? Did you consider that maybe none of the city's neighborhoods make the list because more of the troublemakers are getting sent off to prison?
I addressed this in my original post... if that's the case, then why do so many out-staters STILL insist that Milwaukee is so dangerous and scary? I mean, criminals get locked up here, right? So why do they still feel so unsafe?
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Originally Posted by Drover
Finally, if you think badmouthing the big bad city from "outstaters" is a Wisconsin phenomenon, you don't get around much. Downstaters hate Illinois, Upstate New Yorkers hate NYC (or at least used to), rural Pennsylvanians hate Philly (and Pittsburgh too if they're in SWPA), Michiganders hate Detroit, Ozark hillbillies hate St. Louis, and so on and so forth...
Pretty sure I mentioned somewhere in this thread that I've lived in Atlanta, Detroit and Harlem. I've also spent a significant amount of time in Chicago and visited at least a dozen other major cities. The only place where I've noticed the suburban/outstate paranoia towards a city coming even somewhat close to matching Milwaukee is Detroit.
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