Light rail cheaper to run than buses (Minneapolis, St. Paul: taxi, to live)

[moving123456]

National City Lines which was a holding company owned by General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil, and Phillips Petroleum did buy Twin Cities Rapid Transit and end up destroying the lines.

National City Lines dismantled over 100 streetcar systems in about 50 cities around the country.

Twin Cities Rapid Transit maps from about 100 years ago.....

[audadvnc]

IIRC, organized crime was also involved in the teardown of Mpls' lines. Some political mucky mucks from the city and state did hard time for their involvement.

[wrcousert]

Originally Posted by northsub

If not outright untrue, this seems to be at least not universally excepted:

http://www.cliffslateralso.com/TQOrigin.pdf

At the very least, streetcar usage had declined before GM had anything to do with bus service. And, streetcar companies had begun to replace streetcars with buses before GM's involvement.

What's wrong with buses? A good low floor articulated bus can do everything a streetcar can do without the expense of laying tracks.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by wrcousert

What's wrong with buses? A good low floor articulated bus can do everything a streetcar can do without the expense of laying tracks.

But it has to go through traffic. And gasoline isn't cheap anymore.

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

But it has to go through traffic. And gasoline isn't cheap anymore.

Yes. The traffic is a big deal. I HATE being in a bus sitting in traffic, although at least if you're riding the bus you can sit and read or just relax and not worry about doing the driving. Rail can also carry more people than buses, and is more efficient for higher volumes. Some of the dedicated bus lines (found elsewhere) help with that -- sort of like a train minus the tracks. Regular bus routes also aren't fixed, and therefore make it a bigger risk for transit-oriented development; there's a far greater chance that a bus line will switch routes or be cut than there is that a fixed train route will be suddenly eliminated on you. There are also many people out there who won't take buses, but WILL take trains (seen as cleaner, safer, nicer). Still, I think some use of BRT and other bus innovations are certainly something that should continue to be part of the overall Twin Cities transit conversation.

[wrcousert]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

But it has to go through traffic.

Streetcars also have to go through traffic.

And gasoline isn't cheap anymore.

Use electric trolley buses, and there are newer battery technologies on the horizon that can eliminate the wire.

Note - I'm comparing buses with streetcars, not grade separated light rail.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

Yes. The traffic is a big deal. I HATE being in a bus sitting in traffic, although at least if you're riding the bus you can sit and read or just relax and not worry about doing the driving. Rail can also carry more people than buses, and is more efficient for higher volumes. Some of the dedicated bus lines (found elsewhere) help with that -- sort of like a train minus the tracks. Regular bus routes also aren't fixed, and therefore make it a bigger risk for transit-oriented development; there's a far greater chance that a bus line will switch routes or be cut than there is that a fixed train route will be suddenly eliminated on you. There are also many people out there who won't take buses, but WILL take trains (seen as cleaner, safer, nicer). Still, I think some use of BRT and other bus innovations are certainly something that should continue to be part of the overall Twin Cities transit conversation.

Trains would be better. Somehow, some people will argue that buses are better. Personally, I think buses are used because some people don't want mass transit at all and the buses are like a compromise.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by wrcousert

Streetcars also have to go through traffic.



Use electric trolley buses, and there are newer battery technologies on the horizon that can eliminate the wire.

Note - I'm comparing buses with streetcars, not grade separated light rail.

Trains don't have to go through traffic like buses do.

[Mdcastle]

There are some people that absolutely refuse to ride buses that will ride trains. Me for example. I'll ride LRT here or whatever rail on vacation if they're convenient, but the last time I was on a city bus was 1987 and I don't miss them one bit. As for streetcars- they were mostly on the street and thus at the mercy and no faster than traffic. Light Rail, except in the downtown areas, is on it's own alignment. Maybe keeping streetcars might have made sense in some corridors, say Central, University, and Nicollet (they'll eventually be a heavy rail commuter line, the "Red Rock" to link the dowtowns for the "express" traffic) but it's not a substitute for modern, fast grade seperated light rail and commuter rail.

One thing I disagree on is I think, ridership projections aside, the next light rail line should be between the Airport and downtown St. Paul. It will be extremely indirect to take the Hiawatha Line and then the Central... Once you have the triangular core of the system you can start thinking about lines out into the burbs.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by Mdcastle

There are some people that absolutely refuse to ride buses that will ride trains. Me for example. I'll ride LRT here or whatever rail on vacation if they're convenient, but the last time I was on a city bus was 1987 and I don't miss them one bit. As for streetcars- they were mostly on the street and thus at the mercy and no faster than traffic. Light Rail, except in the downtown areas, is on it's own alignment. Maybe keeping streetcars might have made sense in some corridors, say Central, University, and Nicollet (they'll eventually be a heavy rail commuter line, the "Red Rock" to link the dowtowns for the "express" traffic) but it's not a substitute for modern, fast grade seperated light rail and commuter rail.

One thing I disagree on is I think, ridership projections aside, the next light rail line should be between the Airport and downtown St. Paul. It will be extremely indirect to take the Hiawatha Line and then the Central... Once you have the triangular core of the system you can start thinking about lines out into the burbs.

To me, buses are slow and inconvenient, especially if that's all that is available. Now, if the bus is an express route, then that's different.