Brt (Minneapolis, Apple Valley, Nicollet: purchasing, cost, buses)

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by 1stpontiac

I like it as a way to test and develop ridership in less-dense areas, although I'll admit I don't totally understand the difference between BRT and express lines. It seems like they could be used as a precursor for LRT, though. i.e. if one of the lines starts picking up so enough ridership, and/or if favorable development occured along the round, you could start adding in LRT along that route.

Of course, they've spent enough on the stations and extra bus lines that it would be a costly mistake if the line fails, but a less costly failure than laying rail all that way could be.

True BRT typically operates completely or nearly completely in its own ROW. Express buses often get to do this, but not all of them. Otherwise, the difference is really in amenities to the stations. They're meant to be a more cost-efficient version of light rail (this is a debate, of course, and it depends on scale).

Originally Posted by spectre000

The Snelling Ave/Ford Parkway line is to be next. Should be running by 2015. The MetCouncil has said they intend to have 6 BRT lines by 2020, plus 3 more by 2030.

This will be exciting to have a roll out of better public transportation. However, if I remember correctly, this will be aBRT, which is morel like an upgraded limited-stop bus since these lines operate wholly within the ROW of normal traffic.

Originally Posted by mn55110

On weekdays, I agree there should be more bus lines moving east and west feeding into the Ceadr Ave. B.R.T. (Red Line) along County Road 42, Mc Andrews and other east-west arteries in A.V. Eagan and down in Lakeville as well. Then upon arriving at MOA or the the 28th Avenue rail Parking Garage, there should be connecting bus lines traveing form MOA along American Boulevard all the way west towards France Avenue ending at either Normandale Blvd or Bush lake Road. This would provide service to those working in the numerous office complexes on the I-494 strip.

Originally Posted by golfgal

Don't suggest public transit where people actually drive or suggest the people actually walk in the suburbs---you will get jumped on by the city dwellers .

I took a look at a couple of the routes suggested and--surprise--routes like the American Boulevard from MOA to Normandale actually exist. This tells me people are more enamored by the idea of express buses (suggesting routes) than actually using them (because they already exist, probably at a higher frequency than can be justified) unless they save the person the hassle of driving downtown from a place like Apple Valley.

If the south metro wants better bus routes, I urge them to contact their local service provider. The south metro opted out of Metro Transit to instead form the Minnesota Valley Transit Authority. MVTA has opted to use their allotted dollars to provide a basic level of local service and substantial express service with park-and-ride lots. If all of the routes suggested could support service, they'd probably have it. Alas, those in Rosemount and Apple Valley tend to have cars and tend not to like to wait for public transportation.

Originally Posted by golfgal

You don't need the light rail either, but they are spending money on that...

Are we talking about the Green Line, which will run through one of the most dense corridors in our region? A line that connects three highly concentrated job centers (Downtown Minneapolis, the University of Minnesota, and Downtown St. Paul). A line whose study area (read: area where people will use or be affected by the rail) has about a quarter of a million people living in it and has nearly 360,000 jobs.

Can we really compare the money being invested in the Green Line with the money spent on a suburban park-and-ride to the mall?

[Beenhere4ever]

Well, as a onetime cab driver, I think I can say with certainty that pre-LRT, there was gobs of traffic back and forth to the airport from downtown Mpls. So the "need" was well established. All the other proposals are much more marginal. And, again, suburban districts need only vote the candidate who promises to fight for transit "where people really drive". And then the election outcome will show how big the groundswell is.

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever

Well, as a onetime cab driver, I think I can say with certainty that pre-LRT, there was gobs of traffic back and forth to the airport from downtown Mpls. So the "need" was well established. All the other proposals are much more marginal. And, again, suburban districts need only vote the candidate who promises to fight for transit "where people really drive". And then the election outcome will show how big the groundswell is.

Of course a pro-transit legislator would be crazy to run on such a platform in the suburbs. The built environment is largely not compatible for transit other than park and rides to places like downtown. Their push for transit would largely be an investment in something that wouldn't see results and they'd likely be voted out for supporting such a "boondoggle".

[Beenhere4ever]

Originally Posted by xandrex

Of course a pro-transit legislator would be crazy to run on such a platform in the suburbs. The built environment is largely not compatible for transit other than park and rides to places like downtown. Their push for transit would largely be an investment in something that wouldn't see results and they'd likely be voted out for supporting such a "boondoggle".

Maybe, maybe not. But that's the place to find out. Maybe there are hordes just waiting to be heard that they want more transit service. But they must support candidates that will go to St Paul and carry that word. It won't just happen because they complain how poor the service is. Nowadays, it is totally about funding. The state dug itself a deep hole which it is trying to climb out of. Along the way, it must have strong voter support for anything costing money.

[xandrex]

I just don't believe there is a massing of people who are truly pushing for increased local transit service. Perhaps they thing it's a nice thing, but they have a lot of priorities higher, and if that transit services means any reduction in quality of driving, it's a huge no-no.

People who want to use transit (and who are using it by choice) don't move to the exurbs.

[Beenhere4ever]

Hey, if there's a whiff of "we can get this and not get charged for it", EVERYBODY will want it. But let them be told "we're raising your taxes" and see the enthusiasm wither before your eyes.

[Beenhere4ever]

Just looked at Red Line and 440 schedules. They share stations along their routes. So you CAN get to the zoo off the Red Line, but it would only make sense coming from the south. From MOA, 440 does the whole job.

[gweilo845]

That was my point I raised before. The Red Line seems redundant. There is already a route that goes from Apple Valley to the MoA. I don't think there is a real need to estabilish a new route that runs every fifteen minutes and build big new shelters. You're simply not going to entice people in outer suburbs to give up their cars to go to the mall.

There was a comment about the AV transit center and park and rides always being full. Those people are using the express routes to downtown. I have never once seen anyone get on a bus that wasn't the 477 (express to downtown). They also said they notice a lot of people using non-express routes. Maybe I'm looking at different ones, but any local bus I see has maybe one or two people on it. I know when I take the 476 (express to Palomino park and ride, and then goes through AV) there will be maybe 5 people on it after the Palomino stop. In the morning, I am often the only one on there until the bus gets to Palomino.

I'm not anti-transit at all. I have been riding buses for 30+ years. But after living in AV for a couple of months, I am actively trying to get a car. If I can't be dropped off/picked up from the transit station, it takes me around 90 minutes each way on my commute, counting walking to/from the bus stop and waiting. It is just not a city where you can depend on public transit to get around unless perhaps you live along Cedar.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by gweilo845

That was my point I raised before. The Red Line seems redundant. There is already a route that goes from Apple Valley to the MoA. I don't think there is a real need to estabilish a new route that runs every fifteen minutes and build big new shelters. You're simply not going to entice people in outer suburbs to give up their cars to go to the mall.

There was a comment about the AV transit center and park and rides always being full. Those people are using the express routes to downtown. I have never once seen anyone get on a bus that wasn't the 477 (express to downtown). They also said they notice a lot of people using non-express routes. Maybe I'm looking at different ones, but any local bus I see has maybe one or two people on it. I know when I take the 476 (express to Palomino park and ride, and then goes through AV) there will be maybe 5 people on it after the Palomino stop. In the morning, I am often the only one on there until the bus gets to Palomino.

I'm not anti-transit at all. I have been riding buses for 30+ years. But after living in AV for a couple of months, I am actively trying to get a car. If I can't be dropped off/picked up from the transit station, it takes me around 90 minutes each way on my commute, counting walking to/from the bus stop and waiting. It is just not a city where you can depend on public transit to get around unless perhaps you live along Cedar.

Well, that goes for pretty much everywhere, if you aren't near a bus stop, the bus isn't a convenient way to travel . I saw one of the new buses yesterday picking people up in Eagan, the bus had about 20 people on it and there were several waiting for the bus at the stop on Diffley and Cedar. Maybe it's just the time of day you are there. When we have used the AV station there are 10 buses lined up to take people to various destinations, with 3-5 more parked around the corner to fill in after the other buses are full. Yes, many of them are going to Minneapolis but that route is only good if you work near the IDS area.

[Beenhere4ever]

Originally Posted by gweilo845

That was my point I raised before. The Red Line seems redundant. There is already a route that goes from Apple Valley to the MoA. I don't think there is a real need to estabilish a new route that runs every fifteen minutes and build big new shelters. You're simply not going to entice people in outer suburbs to give up their cars to go to the mall.

There was a comment about the AV transit center and park and rides always being full. Those people are using the express routes to downtown. I have never once seen anyone get on a bus that wasn't the 477 (express to downtown). They also said they notice a lot of people using non-express routes. Maybe I'm looking at different ones, but any local bus I see has maybe one or two people on it. I know when I take the 476 (express to Palomino park and ride, and then goes through AV) there will be maybe 5 people on it after the Palomino stop. In the morning, I am often the only one on there until the bus gets to Palomino.

I'm not anti-transit at all. I have been riding buses for 30+ years. But after living in AV for a couple of months, I am actively trying to get a car. If I can't be dropped off/picked up from the transit station, it takes me around 90 minutes each way on my commute, counting walking to/from the bus stop and waiting. It is just not a city where you can depend on public transit to get around unless perhaps you live along Cedar.

Red Line is redundant up to a point. But it is being engineered to pick up at the stations, not every little crossing street. In short, it is designed to do the same job seriously faster, with ticket machines so that people get fares before boarding making the boarding several times faster. With every existing bus line, the boarding and unloading is on of the real factors for slowing trips down.