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We currently live overseas and plan to return to the US soon. We are considering moving to one of the western neighborhoods of St Paul, NE/S/SW Minneapolis or one of the closer in suburbs. Our maximum budget is around 750-800k for a 3/4 bedroom house, but it would be nice to pay less. We prefer walkable neighborhoods with decent schools and good access to public transportation. Falcon Heights, Roseville, and St Anthony were on our shortlist, since my likely workplace is near the U of M, house prices there seem reasonable, and they are centrally located to many potential employers for my partner. However, the recent shooting of Mr. Castille has given me pause.
Due to the make-up of our family and growing acceptance of openly racist rhetoric and behavior worldwide, we have to carefully consider whether an area will be welcoming and "safe" for us. Until a few days ago, the Twin Cities seemed to be one of the safer places. Now, I fear my husband might be frequently stopped by police on pretext just to make sure he really belongs in the neighborhood and hasn't stolen the vehicle he is driving. Any stop could be fatal depending on the state of mind of the officer.
Racial disparity in test scores and graduation rates also concerns me. My children need schools where they are likely to receive appropriate challenges, compassion and assistance when needed rather than being written off. I have two girls special needs/ acedemically gifted probably going into 2nd and 6th grade (our school year is different, so I'm not sure what grade they will be assigned) and a toddler boy. I guess I am just looking for reassurance and advice. Do I need to cross any suburbs/ neighborhoods off our list? Are there neighborhoods/ suburbs where we will be more welcome? Should we completely reconsider moving to the Twin Cities? I'd hate for this to be the consensus when the region seems to provide such a good combination of affordable living/ employment opportunity for both of us. I appreciate especially feedback based on experiences of middle class minority residents (your own experiences or those of friends/relatives). Thank you.
1. One instance shouldn't change your perception of an entire side of town. We don't even have the whole story here.
2. The racial disparity in the TCs is a function of poverty/segregation more so than a systemic preference of schools to see white kids perform. A black or Latino kid in a good school district will do great as will the white kids there. With your budget you shouldn't need to be in the poorer districts honestly.
Just north of Roseville is the Mounds View school district. Arden Hills, Shoreview, North Oaks area. Highly regarded schools, maybe a 15-20 min commute to the U of M. Roseville is also a good area.
Honestly with your budget you could also buy in a nice city neighborhood and if you don't love the schools go to a private school situation as well.
We currently live overseas and plan to return to the US soon. We are considering moving to one of the western neighborhoods of St Paul, NE/S/SW Minneapolis or one of the closer in suburbs. Our maximum budget is around 750-800k for a 3/4 bedroom house, but it would be nice to pay less. We prefer walkable neighborhoods with decent schools and good access to public transportation. Falcon Heights, Roseville, and St Anthony were on our shortlist, since my likely workplace is near the U of M, house prices there seem reasonable, and they are centrally located to many potential employers for my partner. However, the recent shooting of Mr. Castille has given me pause.
Due to the make-up of our family and growing acceptance of openly racist rhetoric and behavior worldwide, we have to carefully consider whether an area will be welcoming and "safe" for us. Until a few days ago, the Twin Cities seemed to be one of the safer places. Now, I fear my husband might be frequently stopped by police on pretext just to make sure he really belongs in the neighborhood and hasn't stolen the vehicle he is driving. Any stop could be fatal depending on the state of mind of the officer.
Racial disparity in test scores and graduation rates also concerns me. My children need schools where they are likely to receive appropriate challenges, compassion and assistance when needed rather than being written off. I have two girls special needs/ acedemically gifted probably going into 2nd and 6th grade (our school year is different, so I'm not sure what grade they will be assigned) and a toddler boy. I guess I am just looking for reassurance and advice. Do I need to cross any suburbs/ neighborhoods off our list? Are there neighborhoods/ suburbs where we will be more welcome? Should we completely reconsider moving to the Twin Cities? I'd hate for this to be the consensus when the region seems to provide such a good combination of affordable living/ employment opportunity for both of us. I appreciate especially feedback based on experiences of middle class minority residents (your own experiences or those of friends/relatives). Thank you.
- If your husband matches the exact description of an armed robber the police are looking for in the area, he may well be stopped, as Castile was. If he is a Crip Gang member as Castile was, he may have run ins with the law. If he drives drunk as Castile did, he could well have run ins with the law. If he speeds, as Castile did, he could well be pulled over. If he has broken lights and things of that mature, he could be pulled over. My wife is Black and has never once been pulled over for anything. Furthermore, I doubt your partner will be carrying a gun with him and if he is, I'm sure he'll be sure to calmly explain that, then follow the directions of the police officer.
- The two commonalities for low test scores and academic achievement have nothing to do with race. They are #1: Coming from a single parent home and #2: Living below the poverty line. Often there is a correlation between the two. Your kids have two parents in the home and are privileged to be well above the poverty line. Your kids will be just fine.
While clearly there are racial disparities and issues with racial profiling by police, unfortunately I think it's also clear that at this point in time you're going to find that in most of the United States. I wouldn't cut the Twin Cities from your list for that reason.
I'd take a look at neighborhoods like Prospect Park or Seward in Minneapolis (they have different feels, but both are walkable, have good public transportation, and are convenient to the U of MN; both are popular with families of faculty and staff working there and have plenty of kids). There would be both zoned school options as well as magnets. But it sounds like you have a good grasp of some of the options; I don't think any of the areas you list need automatically written off due to concerns about racism.
I should say that I'm white, so my experiences are not from the perspective of a minority resident living locally, but the kids of my non-white friends are thriving in their respective schools. There is definitely a major disparity in test scores, but much of that is related to the economic gulf here in the Twin Cities. There is not the large minority middle class here as you find in some other parts of the country and it's a real problem, but it does mean that there are lots of other factors going on behind those test score numbers besides just race or ethnicity.
Stay from this racists state, if you're black you get shot for no reason. In the restaurants your children will be stared at like the plague. If you have beautiful white women on your arm they will look at her like she has cancer
Honestly, while the recent events are tragic, they could seriously happen anywhere in the US, so I'd say the real question is whether you really want to move back to the States from abroad.
As for your question about Twin Cities neighborhoods, your preferred price-point for homes pretty much leaves you open to living almost anywhere, and as Mr Roboto said above, if you don't like the schools in that area, you can also go private (Blake and Breck are great options in Minneapolis, as are St. Paul Academy and Nova Classical in St. Paul). Without knowing much else about your preferences, I can only say that if I had your budget, I'd be looking at Lowry Hill and Linden Hills (both in Mpls), in that order. As you might imagine, areas really close to the U are usually pretty student-heavy, with all that that entails. If you wanted to save a little money, Northeast neighborhood in Mpls could give you great bang for your buck without getting anywhere near your upper limit, though I confess I don't know anything about schools up there.
Unfortunately--and I feel bad for saying this, but--the one area you really do probably want to avoid if you're just moving to the area is North Minneapolis, (very) roughly north of 394 and west of 94, as this is a higher-poverty area with the crime issues that unfortunately tend to go along with that (including fairly regular shootings, both by criminals and police; just last week a couple of little kids were shot in a vehicle at a stoplight, and this is also where the Jamar Clark killing/protests were). Of course that said, this area's a little out of the way if you were planning to commute to the U for work, anyway.
As far as other posters' comments about MN being an inherently racist place... I would present the caveat that the whole country really is, and use that as your starting point. With that as the case, I don't see the Twin Cities as being any worse, and in a lot of ways could be considered much better. There are tons of mixed-race relationships, especially among the so-called "millennials" crowd, which is pretty great. Around the U, in downtown/uptown, the lakes, etc. etc., nobody will give you a second glance for being a mixed-race couple, and--I don't think I can say this enough--when it comes to racist policing, the Twin Cities are really no worse than the American average.
1. One instance shouldn't change your perception of an entire side of town. We don't even have the whole story here.
2. The racial disparity in the TCs is a function of poverty/segregation more so than a systemic preference of schools to see white kids perform. A black or Latino kid in a good school district will do great as will the white kids there. With your budget you shouldn't need to be in the poorer districts honestly.
Just north of Roseville is the Mounds View school district. Arden Hills, Shoreview, North Oaks area. Highly regarded schools, maybe a 15-20 min commute to the U of M. Roseville is also a good area.
Honestly with your budget you could also buy in a nice city neighborhood and if you don't love the schools go to a private school situation as well.
1. That's what I was hoping.
2. Thank you for the Mounds View District suggestion. We would prefer a more central walkable location with better public transport options, I think. For my current commute, I have the option of driving 25 minutes (slightly off peak), taking train in 35-40 minutes including walking to and from stations, or biking in 40-45 minutes. I would really like to have similar options in our new home, and I would also love to have a grocery store, cafe, library and parks in walking/ biking distance.
I heard Saint Anthony is a very good school district, Roseville (including Falcon Heights) is pretty good, and that some St Paul schools are also very good (Horace Mann, Groveland, St Anthony Park, various magnets, etc). I was thinking the bigger school districts of St Paul or Minneapolis might be better resourced or have more options for special needs/ gifted education. The small highly rated public school our kids currently attend has been just okay and not great for them. It has taken a lot of effort from me and the former principal to get them adequate support. In the meantime, they have been misunderstood and bullied by other kids and at least one teacher for being different.
Does anyone have experience with support/ differentiated learning options provided in the "city" schools or in the other districts mentioned?
I wish your family a successful move to the Twin Cities or wherever you choose to relocate. Most of the neighborhoods listed above should work fine, barring an occasional bad neighbor or schoolteacher. I would stay away from the outer suburbs, as they may not be racist, but tend to be quite conservative, by Minnesota measures.
It does seem, however, based on your comment - "Due to the ... growing acceptance of openly racist rhetoric and behavior worldwide" - that you may be arriving with a shoulder chip of a considerable size, perhaps justified, and a negative attitude.
- If your husband matches the exact description of an armed robber the police are looking for in the area, he may well be stopped, as Castile was. If he is a Crip Gang member as Castile was, he may have run ins with the law.
My wife is Black and has never once been pulled over.
- The two commonalities for low test scores and academic achievement have nothing to do with race. They are #1: Coming from a single parent home and #2: Living below the poverty line. Often there is a correlation between the two. Your kids have two parents in the home and are privileged to be well above the poverty line. Your kids will be just fine.
- Hope this helps
You mean if he has brown skin and a wide nose, he might be stopped. He does. And, if something bad happens to him during that stop, his reputation will be called into question afterwards in order to justify the result.
I don't think any of Castile's prior traffic offenses are legally punishable by the death penalty. They certainly didn't hinder him in passing the background checks required for a concealed carry permit or to work in a school. If he was a gang member (very dubious given sources of this information), he hadn't been arrested for any gang related crime. The majority of his traffic offenses seem to stem from low income (unable to maintain insurance and/or pay fines within allowable time period = license suspended/ revoked, license is suspended/ revoked and need to go somewhere inaccessible by public transportation = driving without a valid license, car is broken and no money for tow truck and repairs = violation of street parking restrictions) Since he had been ticketed so many times without incident, he probably knew the "rules" about what to do. I think he was unlucky to be stopped by an officer who was not in the right frame of mind to be working that night.
Is your wife male? I've been stopped for a burnt out tail light and given a verbal warning only. I'm glad it was me driving. It's black males who are usually stereotyped by the police (and the public and the media) as thugs and criminals. The negative stereotypes for black females are different as you may have experienced if you've travelled together much. If she hasn't expressed even a little trepidation about her black male relatives driving, she is in denial. Yes, this kind of thing more often happens to people of perceived lower social status (dressed a certain way, driving beat up car, young, mentally ill, etc), but black maleness alone is enough to make some police "jumpy".
Finally, national test score and achievement data corrected for the factors you mention still shows racial disparities. At a national level, studies have shown race is a factor (but not the only one) in drop out rates and in lower levels of achievement.
I would thank you for your help, but your responses are less than reassuring.
While clearly there are racial disparities and issues with racial profiling by police, unfortunately I think it's also clear that at this point in time you're going to find that in most of the United States. I wouldn't cut the Twin Cities from your list for that reason.
I'd take a look at neighborhoods like Prospect Park or Seward in Minneapolis (they have different feels, but both are walkable, have good public transportation, and are convenient to the U of MN; both are popular with families of faculty and staff working there and have plenty of kids). There would be both zoned school options as well as magnets. But it sounds like you have a good grasp of some of the options; I don't think any of the areas you list need automatically written off due to concerns about racism.
I should say that I'm white, so my experiences are not from the perspective of a minority resident living locally, but the kids of my non-white friends are thriving in their respective schools. There is definitely a major disparity in test scores, but much of that is related to the economic gulf here in the Twin Cities. There is not the large minority middle class here as you find in some other parts of the country and it's a real problem, but it does mean that there are lots of other factors going on behind those test score numbers besides just race or ethnicity.
Thank you for this. Unfortunately, I think you are right. I was just hoping Minnesota would be "nicer" I guess.
Do you know anyone with kids who have special needs in Minneapolis schools? If so, have they been happy with the level of support provided?
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