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Hey man, this is Prince land. He loved us and we love him. I hope you experience as much of the good and as little of the bad that you can here.
That being said, even adjusting for various demographic criteria there are gaps in homeownership, employment and income between black and white Minnesotans.
"At first, some people suggested that the disparities had something to do with the region’s large number of East African immigrants, who tend to have lower education levels and poor English skills, and therefore face more obstacles in building wealth. But researchers at the Metropolitan Council recently analyzed the Census data in a different way, and dispelled much of that myth: Even after controlling for certain economic and demographic factors—such as income, immigration status, and length of time in the Twin Cities—a white person living in the area would still still be more likely to have a job, own a home, and earn more money than a black person living in the area. Adam Duininck, the chair of the Metropolitan Council, concluded that the findings confirm beliefs about “the presence and persistence of structural racism in our Twin Cities community.”"
Significant gaps exist even when you adjust for "age, immigration profile, English skills, gender balance, migration pattern, disability status, level of education, share of parents with child(ren) under age 6, occupation, and employment profile".
I have read your articles, this gives me cause to pause. I read about the disparity but I assumed it had to do with low education attainment rates for black people over all. I assumed with 1 graduate and 1 professional degree, I would not have too much of a problem.
I am going to ask you some very blunt questions. I would like you to answer bluntly. How bad is the disparity from your point of view? I mean this is not totally shocking to me, the east coast is ferocious with hidden prejudices and racism. Are you in your 30's? If so, we need to vibe on this issue. I am leaving the east coast but I won't go to Minneapolis if this issue is overwhelming to me. I would like to work in Minneapolis, living there is not really important to me. Actually I have lived in Philly, manhattan, etc. I am somewhat done with the city life.
Here is a question that will tell me a lot, how are blacks treated by other minorities? My explanation for asking this is not clear cut but I'll explain. If other minorities show disdain or lack of respect for black people through socializing and dating, i can assume that income and stereotypes could be a factor. Asians over here mimic the feelings of whites towards blacks because of perceived connotations.
I want to know everything. As, I type this I already have my contingency plan. As a black male, I never expect to get treated completely fair but there is a breaking point. I have loans and its better to know now, so I can makes changes.
I will not move to another NJ. Thankyou for taking time to post this.
I am going to ask you some very blunt questions. I would like you to answer bluntly. How bad is the disparity from your point of view? I mean this is not totally shocking to me, the east coast is ferocious with hidden prejudices and racism. Are you in your 30's? If so, we need to vibe on this issue. I am leaving the east coast but I won't go to Minneapolis if this issue is overwhelming to me. I would like to work in Minneapolis, living there is not really important to me....
Here is a question that will tell me a lot, how are blacks treated by other minorities? My explanation for asking this is not clear cut but I'll explain. If other minorities show disdain or lack of respect for black people through socializing and dating, i can assume that income and stereotypes could be a factor. Asians over here mimic the feelings of whites towards blacks because of perceived connotations.
I want to know everything. As, I type this I already have my contingency plan. As a black male, I never expect to get treated completely fair but there is a breaking point. I have loans and its better to know now, so I can makes changes.
I wish I could answer your questions. As I'm sure you understand, bias is invisible to those who aren't its target, and I am not the target of anti-black bias as I'm white. Denying, dismissing and condescending to the experiences of minorities is a cottage industry here and across the country. I can only give you what the empirical evidence shows in the studies above, and tell you that there will be people in this forum who will flat out deny or downplay the evidence because they simply will not accept that bias is widespread in this society because, at the base level, it benefits them.
Another thing I can tell you is this: of the black friends/acquaintances I have had and have now who I have asked about this I have gotten a very wide range of responses. Some have genuinely never knowingly had issues here (at least not to their knowledge). Several have been profiled and pulled over by police for DWB. One good friend of mine went on vacation with her son to a small town up north and was racially profiled by police - she didn't go into details but I could tell it bothered her.
Studies like the ones linked above are based on averages. The averages do suggest that there is significant bias here. But nobody lives an average. For some it is worse, for some it is better. If you like I could reach out to some of my black friends/acquaintances and ask them to chat with you about their experiences here. I've lost touch with many of them as I'm a stereotypical Minnesotan in that my social circle is rather small, being mostly family and a handful of friends.
My impression is that this forum is mostly white people but obviously we cannot know for certain such things about posters. Let's just say that this is a forum that has few antibodies to combat racist attitudes and sentiments. Keep your antennae sensitive and read between the lines of some of the responses you receive here.
Aside from all that, my comment about this being Prince-land wasn't completely a joke, and it isn't irrelevant. When he died the street party was epic and there were all kinds of people there grieving and partying together and it was a beautiful thing that gave me hope and filled me with love for this place. Also, the leaders of the Democratic Party who pushed it towards adopting the Civil Rights platform in the 60's (which, as Nixon, Atwater, and LBJ all said lost the South for the Democrats) were two Minnesotans - Walter Mondale and Hubert H Humphrey. This is a land of contrasts, but aloof and quiet ones so people don't fully appreciate how radically at odds so many impulses and attitudes are. It's genuinely hard to predict what your individual experience will be, we can only roughly know odds and averages.
Last edited by Thedosius; 11-29-2016 at 07:01 AM..
I have read your articles, this gives me cause to pause. I read about the disparity but I assumed it had to do with low education attainment rates for black people over all. I assumed with 1 graduate and 1 professional degree, I would not have too much of a problem.
I am going to ask you some very blunt questions. I would like you to answer bluntly. How bad is the disparity from your point of view? I mean this is not totally shocking to me, the east coast is ferocious with hidden prejudices and racism. Are you in your 30's? If so, we need to vibe on this issue. I am leaving the east coast but I won't go to Minneapolis if this issue is overwhelming to me. I would like to work in Minneapolis, living there is not really important to me. Actually I have lived in Philly, manhattan, etc. I am somewhat done with the city life.
Here is a question that will tell me a lot, how are blacks treated by other minorities? My explanation for asking this is not clear cut but I'll explain. If other minorities show disdain or lack of respect for black people through socializing and dating, i can assume that income and stereotypes could be a factor. Asians over here mimic the feelings of whites towards blacks because of perceived connotations.
I want to know everything. As, I type this I already have my contingency plan. As a black male, I never expect to get treated completely fair but there is a breaking point. I have loans and its better to know now, so I can makes changes.
I will not move to another NJ. Thankyou for taking time to post this.
Minnesota has a small Black population, so we have no real Black middle class, no Black middle class neighborhoods or Black middle class schools to speak of. Those with education do very well here as we have so many fortune 500 companies and with Minnesota being so liberal, qualified Black candidates will not only find themselves in high demand, but often find themselves in bidding wars for their services. They tend to move to the suburbs & blend into mainstream Minnesotan culture.
The challenge is that so many of the Black folks here are poor & uneducated that it skews the numbers. First, let me preface this by pointing out that Minnesota has been at or near the top of the National list for literacy & education levels for decades, so the bar is set very high when non-residents migrate here.
Next, you'll note that the data used in Theodosius's link begins in 1990. Allow me to start back in 1980, when there were roughly 50k Blacks in Minnesota. In 2015 there are roughly 275k Blacks in Minnesota. The population nearly increased six-fold in 35 years. That's very significant.
The reason it's important to start in 1980 (or earlier if you like) is that the Twin Cities saw a wave of poor, Black migration from gang and drug infested inner cities across the Midwest during the 1980's. Mostly from from Chicago, Gary Ind. Detroit, Milwaukee & East St Louis, Mo. Some people say this was tied to cuts in welfare during the Reagan years, while Minnesota, was significantly higher than those states for welfare payments to begin with & hadn't cut benefits, so it became a welfare magnet of sorts. Minnesota became known as "Moneysota" on the street. I happen to believe most poor Blacks moved here hoping to find work & safer lives for their kids, but I'm sure the best welfare system in the Midwest was also a nice safety net if things didn't pan out.
Whatever the reasons, those cities were/are all places with massive unemployment, p*ss-poor educational systems, high incarceration rates, etc. When they moved here en masse in the 1980's, they had to compete for jobs with locals who had a better quality of education & the advantage of being from here (family, housing, transportation, etc). Predictably those poor Blacks didn't move right in and get great jobs. Instead they largely settled into places like North Mpls, Frogtown or East St Paul, areas with little to no employment opportunities. We still see a steady flow of poor Blacks from Chicago migrating here who bring all sorts of Chicago drama with them & they tend to migrate to those same neighborhoods. What we're seeing today is three generations of those folks stuck in what has become a permanent underclass. That doesn't make Minnesota racist though. It's like if you and I raced 100m & you had 50m head start. I'm not going to win because of the handicap I started the race with & that doesn't make you bad for winning.
Add to those numbers the African immigrants who've moved to the TC since 2000, who bring with them English language issues & ignorance (not stupidity) of the American system (how to get a loan, etc). What we see is a combined Black population that is behind in virtually every positive statistical category.
The future however, should look different. I think many of the African immigrants will move up and onto brighter, more equal futures. Go to any suburb and you'll see Somalis, Ethiopians, etc. buying homes, driving new cars, working two jobs, their kids graduating with honors & going to college. That should help equalize some of the disparities in the next 20 years. We're also seeing 'Black flight' as parents who work and care, move out of the city to the suburbs hoping for a better life for their kids.
That said, if you're a college educated Black man in Minnesota today...like yourself, none of this really applies to you & you'e in a fantastic situation in the Twin Cities.
Last edited by Mason3000; 12-02-2016 at 11:05 PM..
What we're seeing today is three generations of those folks stuck in what has become a permanent underclass. That doesn't make Minnesota racist though.
Yes, it does. A permanent underclass doesn't happen in a bubble. It happens because of policies. Minnesota is the land of institutional racism.
Quote:
That said, if you're a college educated Black man in Minnesota today...like yourself, none of this really applies to you & you'e in a fantastic situation in the Twin Cities.
...says a white person. Thedosius gave the most well-rounded view here. If you are a black person who can erase/minimize everything that makes you black, you will fit in because white people will be comfortable around you. If that sounds like something you can do, you should come to the Twin Cities. Be aware that the ability to integrate won't necessarily translate into job opportunities, because people generally look out for their own. You can never erase or minimize your black skin.
Minnesota has a small Black population, so we have no real Black middle class, no Black middle class neighborhoods or Black middle class schools to speak of. Those with education do very well here as we have so many fortune 500 companies and with Minnesota being so liberal, qualified Black candidates will not only find themselves in high demand, but often find themselves in bidding wars for their services. They tend to move to the suburbs & blend into mainstream Minnesotan culture.
The challenge is that so many of the Black folks here are poor & uneducated that it skews the numbers. First, let me preface this by pointing out that Minnesota has been at or near the top of the National list for literacy & education levels for decades, so the bar is set very high when non-residents migrate here.
Next, you'll note that the data used in Theodosius's link begins in 1990. Allow me to start back in 1980, when there were roughly 50k Blacks in Minnesota. In 2015 there are roughly 275k Blacks in Minnesota. The population nearly increased six-fold in 35 years. That's very significant.
The reason it's important to start in 1980 (or earlier if you like) is that the Twin Cities saw a wave of poor, Black migration from gang and drug infested inner cities across the Midwest during the 1980's. Mostly from from Chicago, Gary Ind. Detroit, Milwaukee & East St Louis, Mo. Some people say this was tied to cuts in welfare during the Reagan years, while Minnesota, was significantly higher than those states for welfare payments to begin with & hadn't cut benefits, so it became a welfare magnet of sorts. Minnesota became known as "Moneysota" on the street. I happen to believe most poor Blacks moved here hoping to find work & safer lives for their kids, but I'm sure the best welfare system in the Midwest was also a nice safety net if things didn't pan out.
Whatever the reasons, those cities were/are all places with massive unemployment, p*ss-poor educational systems, high incarceration rates, etc. When they moved here en masse in the 1980's, they had to compete for jobs with locals who had a better quality of education & the advantage of being from here (family, housing, transportation, etc). Predictably those poor Blacks didn't move right in and get great jobs. Instead they largely settled into places like North Mpls, Frogtown or East St Paul, areas with little to no employment opportunities. We still see a steady flow of poor Blacks from Chicago migrating here who bring all sorts of Chicago drama with them & they tend to migrate to those same neighborhoods. What we're seeing today is three generations of those folks stuck in what has become a permanent underclass. That doesn't make Minnesota racist though. It's like if you and I raced 100m & you had 50m head start. I'm not going to win because of the handicap I started the race with & that doesn't make you bad for winning.
Add to those numbers the African immigrants who've moved to the TC since 2000, who bring with them English language issues & ignorance (not stupidity) of the American system (how to get a loan, etc). What we see is a combined Black population that is behind in virtually every positive statistical category.
The future however, should look different. I think many of the African immigrants will move up and onto brighter, more equal futures. Go to any suburb and you'll see Somalis, Ethiopians, etc. buying homes, driving new cars, working two jobs, their kids graduating with honors & going to college. That should help equalize some of the disparities in the next 20 years. We're also seeing 'Black flight' as parents who work and care, move out of the city to the suburbs hoping for a better life for their kids.
That said, if you're a college educated Black man in Minnesota today...like yourself, none of this really applies to you & you'e in a fantastic situation in the Twin Cities.
Yes, it does. A permanent underclass doesn't happen in a bubble. It happens because of policies. Minnesota is the land of institutional racism.
...says a white person. Thedosius gave the most well-rounded view here. If you are a black person who can erase/minimize everything that makes you black, you will fit in because white people will be comfortable around you. If that sounds like something you can do, you should come to the Twin Cities. Be aware that the ability to integrate won't necessarily translate into job opportunities, because people generally look out for their own. You can never erase or minimize your black skin.
I'm from the NJ the most corrupt, and racist (hidden) state on the east coast. It's diverse but just because people have to live here. They say it's just cut throat but I beg to differ. When you live in a place like this you assimilate and learn how to go about things.
People looking out for their own..... That's everywhere except in the black community... Sorry to say. I'm being real about that.
When it comes to minimizing everything that makes me black, I say that I don't fit the stereotype. I don't even know what your statement means to be honest. If you mean loud, obnoxious, etc I think that's in every race. The whole idea of how a certain race acts or what the standard is totally trash now. I March to the best of my own drum and stay in my own lane.
Yes I am educated but it means nothing in NJ. That give you a clue to how ****ed it is here.
LOL.
FYI...being loud and obnoxious are NOT what makes you black. That you even think that way says more about you than it does about blacks. I'm not going to bother to explain what I meant because it'll fall on deaf ears. Again, good luck with your education and "Lane" in MN.
...The challenge is that so many of the Black folks here are poor & uneducated that it skews the numbers. First, let me preface this by pointing out that Minnesota has been at or near the top of the National list for literacy & education levels for decades, so the bar is set very high when non-residents migrate here.
...
That said, if you're a college educated Black man in Minnesota today...like yourself, none of this really applies to you & you'e in a fantastic situation in the Twin Cities.
I'm not sure if there's an ignorance here about how to read statistics, but I reiterate my BOLDED passage above:
"But researchers at the Metropolitan Council recently analyzed the Census data in a different way, and dispelled much of that myth: Even after controlling for certain economic and demographic factors—such as income, immigration status, and length of time in the Twin Cities—a white person living in the area would still still be more likely to have a job, own a home, and earn more money than a black person living in the area"
In other words, an educated black man in Minnesota is less likely to own a home, earn as much money, etc as a similarly educated white man. The blather about the significant population of poor and/or under-educated blacks, while true, is in no way germane to the discussion of equally educated but unequally compensated populations whose sole significant demographic difference is race/ethnicity.
shawnj1215 I will rely on your education to correctly read and interpret the statistics I have presented to you. The person who will pay if there is structural racism in the Twin Cities is you, not some of the people you are discussing this topic with. As you said, you have loans to pay (and even before that, you said you were educated...which is pretty much saying you have loans to pay ). I am not trying to dissuade you from coming here - on the contrary I think more educated blacks have a vital and necessary role in building a vital black middle class here. But the Panglossian view you are getting on structural racism is in no way supported by and in many ways strongly disproven by the best available statistical evidence.
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Good luck.
