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Minnesota is a very, very "liberal minded" state (although a totally unique breed of liberal, unlike what can be found in almost any other state, save for maybe rural Vermont. They're the sort of liberal that even a conservative or a libertarian (like me) can respect)
One of the key precepts of all "liberalism" - including present day Minnesota liberalism- is valuing idealism over reality. Many of the functional dynamics of modern liberal thinking simply cannot exist when held to a realistic standard, so the way around that is to simply place the onus of importance on the idea, rather than the result. A liberal figures out their belief structure by way of their own isolated life experiences, cobbles up a set of ideals to match and then dogmatically ascribes themselves to them, often times at the expense of fact, reason and/or logic. Of course, the granddaddy of all liberal beliefs is "equality".
Even if every demonstrable indicator suggests otherwise, the liberal minded person will rationalize this ideal to their dying breath, often times concocting up bizarre and outlandish theories in support. They are willing to overlook the negative impacts their beliefs cause because to them, the belief itself is worth more than the effects it has when put into practice.
The reason I just mused philosophical there is because the state of Minnesota is probably the most classic of all classic examples of what happens when feel-good idealism is put into action, without any mechanisms to reverse the changes should they show themselves to be flawed. It started in the 1960's when Southern blacks were "invited" to Minnesota with the state welfare system as the predicate "safety net", and it has evolved into what we see today.
A large part of the reason racial issues in this country will never, ever be resolved is because the truth is held liable to people who will shout "racist" whenever an unflattering or unfortunate racial truism is mentioned. Since you cannot repair or heal things that you cannot even speak about, this issue will linger and languish, creating fractures between those who believe in a perfect world, and those of us who live in the real world.
In short, much of what is considered to be 'racist' is absolutely, positively reality, but since we can't say it, it will continue to perpetuity.
I'm done waxing.
You also have to take in mind that the blacks(most of them) who are in this nation today are here not because they chose to come but because their ancestors were brought here by force(sold out by other African tribes and taken hostage by European slave traders for greed). There is some racial truism. Most of the African immigrants who come here come with a different attitude because of the mentality of "it was my choice to come to the USA because this is the land of freedom and opportunity." Many African-Americans try to be patriotic under the benison of "I was born here, my parents were born here, my grandparents were born here, therefore, I am an American" and with that mentality comes "I am an American so I should be entitled to the same American privelege as everyone else" and any American ought to be entitled to it. Unfortunately, race does play a part on both sides. Many African-Americans feel that they will never be apart of the American dream(and in many cases for good reason, such as being turned down for jobs regardless of qualification), so many don't even try. In many cases, there are times when any ethnic group is in the majority and persons of that ethnic group will often have an attitude of "let people of my ethnic group in but keep everyone else out", many times in implicit ways. It happens. As for southern blacks on welfare, this problem could have been solved long before African-Americans started migrating North and West. Here is the situation, on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. In the South, blacks were used as slaves on the cotton plantations and the sugar cane fields. In the North, that type of industry wasn't profitable because of the climate. When the slaves were freed after the Civil War, former slaves were not used to having to take care of themselves and to be honest, you have to teach people who to intergrate into society. Blacks were taught to "stay in their place". Many persons were able to buck that problem and become successful, particularly if they went into the military or had the access to a decent education and decent teachers, which many persons still don't have now. To be honest, blacks were never really wanted in this nation in the first place, they were just used until they couldn't be used. Blacks were rarely wanted in the North because there was little use for slavery. In the South, they were thought of as little more than chattel and when they were freed, well, you know what happened in the South until the 1960's. As for what is happening today, from what I heard, there are restrictions in place for welfare in Minnesota because of the migration of blacks who do sometimes end up on welfare. That isn't stopping the migration. Many are here because jobs in the Rust Belt cities are drying and and if you are poor and need a job, Minneapolis is becoming the destination. I'm not saying that there aren't people on welfare, but the people who are on welfare or who commit crimes get most of the attention. I see the issue as more while Minneapolis isn't the most violent city in the USA(not even close), police say that while most blacks aren't involved in crime, more than 2/3 of the victims and perpetrators of murders are black.
I don't think anyone is saying that blacks in America have had it easy.
I think what a lot of people are saying is that if we collectively allow the past to be a crutch and endless justification for future failures, then things will never get better since you can't change the past.
It's important to find answers to questions- it's important to ask "why".
There are unquestionably complex, deep sociological and socioeconomic dynamics in play with the black race in the United States and Minnesota. With that said, it seems that the modern-day liberal methodology that seeks to understand the disparities between races has gone from "asking why" to "figuring out how we can rationalize this pesky truth away".
Of all the races/ethnicities/peoples on the planet who have had it bad, I'd say the Jews probably take the #1 spot (considering they've been purged from virtually every civilization they've ever inhabited, slaughtered en-masse, enslaved, etc), yet they've never, ever exhibited the same failings that the black race in America so casually accepts, even during periods immediately subsequent to their most violent oppressions.
Heck, after World War II- after millions of them were murdered- instead of sitting around and wailing about the injustice of it all and demanding reparations from Germany, they immediately went out and founded their own independent nation-state!
The old adage- "I once felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet" is in play here. Yes, blacks have had it bad, but that really doesn't explain away a number of the failings of their own culture, given that other cultures and races have had it worse, yet found a way to get their **** together in a much shorter period of time than it's taken black Americans.
Does it make me a "racist" to say this? Some people would say yes... Objective people would say no.
It probably has affected "Minnesota Nice". However, it is not the only factor. I also think that people are more concerned about their Ipods, big houses, and other material things than substance.
I also think liberalism has affected Minnesota Nice too.
What is MN nice? Is it a geniune niceness that comes from the heart or is it passive aggressive "make people feel good" type of nice that isn't always real? I prefer the genuine nice.
Of all the races/ethnicities/peoples on the planet who have had it bad, I'd say the Jews probably take the #1 spot (considering they've been purged from virtually every civilization they've ever inhabited, slaughtered en-masse, enslaved, etc), yet they've never, ever exhibited the same failings that the black race in America so casually accepts, even during periods immediately subsequent to their most violent oppressions.
Heck, after World War II- after millions of them were murdered- instead of sitting around and wailing about the injustice of it all and demanding reparations from Germany, they immediately went out and founded their own independent nation-state!
The old adage- "I once felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet" is in play here. Yes, blacks have had it bad, but that really doesn't explain away a number of the failings of their own culture, given that other cultures and races have had it worse, yet found a way to get their **** together in a much shorter period of time than it's taken black Americans.
Does it make me a "racist" to say this? Some people would say yes... Objective people would say no.
Did other groups REALLY get it together in a much shorter period of time? Consider that the Jewish culture has been dealing with / developing solutions to the problems LM1 mentions for a couple / three MILLENIA and slavery in this country dates back a few centuries. Slavery was abolished in our country only 150 years ago and civil rights protections won only 50 years ago. In the grand scheme of things that's a wink of the eye and a lot more growth needs to occur on both sides.
And to say that the Jews recovered so quickly from the Holocaust and immediately founded their own nation is a rather simplistic view. It minimizes the horror they did face and also ignores the fact that they were granted a nation/territory by the UN - resulting in much of the Middle East unrest we have today. It doesn't mean Jews didn't deserve to have a homeland or that Isreal hasn't accomplished incredible things. But the comparisons you've made aren't necessarily justified.
I'm sorry, but to this white boy at least, you're arguement seems like vieled racism that is being rationalized as "objectivity."
Did other groups REALLY get it together in a much shorter period of time? Consider that the Jewish culture has been dealing with / developing solutions to the problems LM1 mentions for a couple / three MILLENIA and slavery in this country dates back a few centuries. Slavery was abolished in our country only 150 years ago and civil rights protections won only 50 years ago. In the grand scheme of things that's a wink of the eye and a lot more growth needs to occur on both sides.
And to say that the Jews recovered so quickly from the Holocaust and immediately founded their own nation is a rather simplistic view. It minimizes the horror they did face and also ignores the fact that they were granted a nation/territory by the UN - resulting in much of the Middle East unrest we have today. It doesn't mean Jews didn't deserve to have a homeland or that Isreal hasn't accomplished incredible things. But the comparisons you've made aren't necessarily justified.
I'm sorry, but to this white boy at least, you're arguement seems like vieled racism that is being rationalized as "objectivity."
Sounds like a better argument than I could have come up with.
What is MN nice? Is it a geniune niceness that comes from the heart or is it passive aggressive "make people feel good" type of nice that isn't always real? I prefer the genuine nice.
"MN nice" was originally coined as an ironic term, referring to the passive agreesive nature of many in this state. However, the irony-challenged folks (again, there are many in this state) assumed it was referring to "genuine nice" and use it that way.
My single allegiance is to God - none before & none afterwards. Everything that I do & everything that I believe is the offspring of this allegiance. (no, I am not claiming to be perfect)
At the same time, I understand & appreciate what I perceive to be the sentiment behind this quote. But, I will hyphenate my identity all I want (although I don't use a hyphen, as they are often done away with in this regard now) without losing one single iota of value to this nation than I would hold if I chose to conform. This is a principle for which this great nation was founded. I believe what he spoke of was far more philosophically than literally intended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishduckdog
"There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all.
This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance.
But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.
The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English- Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian- Americans, or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality than with the other citizens of the American Republic.
The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American. "
Addressing the Knights of Columbus in New York City
12 October 1915
Did other groups REALLY get it together in a much shorter period of time? Consider that the Jewish culture has been dealing with / developing solutions to the problems LM1 mentions for a couple / three MILLENIA and slavery in this country dates back a few centuries. Slavery was abolished in our country only 150 years ago and civil rights protections won only 50 years ago. In the grand scheme of things that's a wink of the eye and a lot more growth needs to occur on both sides.
Slavery has existed on the African continent since the beginning of human history. You cannot legitimately say "Well, Jews had millennia of experience dealing with this stuff but blacks haven't" because it just isn't true.
The glaring elephant in the room- the one thing that we aren't supposed to address- is the fact that blacks never had an advanced civilization to begin with (and to this day, in many parts of Africa, they still don't). Often times, "slavery" is used as a grand rationalizer that tries to obfuscate the fact that black civilization has always existed in abject primitivism- whether they were slaves, or living free in their own homelands. Do you think that present-day descendants of black American slaves are "worse off" here than they would be if they were still living in Africa?
I can certainly understand how slavery might act as a qualifier for a few things that are native to the American condition, but when it's cited as a perpetual rationale for cultural failure, I think it's intellectual dishonesty at it's ugliest.
Quote:
And to say that the Jews recovered so quickly from the Holocaust and immediately founded their own nation is a rather simplistic view. It minimizes the horror they did face and also ignores the fact that they were granted a nation/territory by the UN - resulting in much of the Middle East unrest we have today. It doesn't mean Jews didn't deserve to have a homeland or that Isreal hasn't accomplished incredible things. But the comparisons you've made aren't necessarily justified.
You completely failed to grasp my point. Instead, you tried to distract from my philosophical premise by quarreling over the pertinence of irrelevant factual minutiae.
Blacks in America haven't ever made a collective effort to better themselves as a people. Jews have; matter of fact, it's a near predicate for their entire culture. Blacks, on the other hand, have gone from being slaves (until 1865), to being independent but segregated (until about the 1960's) to being integrated but woefully dependent (to present) without a single collective effort to better themselves internally. They made a correct effort to better an external condition (segregation) but have yet to make a single effort that would raise them above their present state in America, Africa, or anywhere else they exist. As things stand at present, there are opportunities out there that are so offensively slanted towards blacks (particularly in the realm of government contracts, upper level education scholarships, small business loans, etc) that the only thing standing in their way is their own fatalist concept of life, their own inherent abilities or inabilities and their own personal decisions.
You can't blame slavery for that.
Quote:
I'm sorry, but to this white boy at least, you're arguement seems like vieled racism that is being rationalized as "objectivity."
You are apparently one of the people who think that the concept of "racism" should trump the truth. In the context of any discussion about race in America, there is going to be a huge body of fact that is considered to be "racist" but is absolutely real, highly relevant and totally factual none the less. I don't happen to believe we should ignore the truth in favor of some delusionally idealistic concept of "racism".
When I grew up in small town Minnesota we knew all our neighbors and felt comfortable with everyone. Some were nicer than others but we shared a common bond. Why? Because 98% of us were either German or Swedish going back five generations. Most people in my home town Great Grandparents were immigrants, but few were actual first generation immigrants. We all shared a common culture and appearance. It made me feel comfortable.
Now the street I grew up with has all kinds of people who are not typical Minnesotans. The friendly neighborhood is now divided. People feel out of place and divide into racial groups. Wasn't the old boring Minnesota easier? Or maybe not?
Key word "common bond". Many persons move to a place because it is safer or has more opportunities than where they once lived and sometimes they can feel out of place. That is why many persons try to find people for who they share a common bond with. I think the thing to do is to find a way where we can all share a common bond with one another regardless of race, color, nationality,etc.
Blacks in America haven't ever made a collective effort to better themselves as a people. Jews have; matter of fact, it's a near predicate for their entire culture. Blacks, on the other hand, have gone from being slaves (until 1865), to being independent but segregated (until about the 1960's) to being integrated but woefully dependent (to present) without a single collective effort to better themselves internally. They made a correct effort to better an external condition (segregation) but have yet to make a single effort that would raise them above their present state in America, Africa, or anywhere else they exist. As things stand at present, there are opportunities out there that are so offensively slanted towards blacks (particularly in the realm of government contracts, upper level education scholarships, small business loans, etc) that the only thing standing in their way is their own fatalist concept of life, their own inherent abilities or inabilities and their own personal decisions.
You can't blame slavery for that.
You are apparently one of the people who think that the concept of "racism" should trump the truth. In the context of any discussion about race in America, there is going to be a huge body of fact that is considered to be "racist" but is absolutely real, highly relevant and totally factual none the less. I don't happen to believe we should ignore the truth in favor of some delusionally idealistic concept of "racism".
You seem very fond of huge generalizations that you call objective fact but can't actually support. According to your view all the highly rated all black universities don't count for a serious attempt by African Americans to "better themselves internally". Martin Luther King Jr. apparently made no effort to better his people or the nation as a whole? What of the achievements of so many black men and women through U.S. history, from Frederick Douglas and Harriet Tubman on through to Colin Powell? Are these all meaningless to you? One reading your post would assume that you would be reluctant to hire a black employee with an MBA because you don't believe he/she will make an effort to better him/herself. Isn't that racism rather than objectivity, which would give the same weight to the MBA no matter what race the holder has?
Here's a very important fact for you that does trump the "huge body of fact" you keep referring to. The single greatest predictor of success in the U.S. (and the world) is socio-economic status - not race. This is something I have seen demonstrated throughout my teaching career and is born out again and again by the majority of current research. It explains much of what you would rather account to Jews getting their act together while blacks are "fatalistic."
I hope to move to MN in the next few years, and I sure hope you represent the exception rather than the rule!
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Well, I'll just have to respectfully disagree!
