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Successful businesses constantly reinvent themselves. Basic principles never change. As a bar owner I'd think about trying to capture a tiny portion of the 90% of people who don't smoke.
I know this guy whose business morphed from a bookstore to a coffeehouse to an internet cafe to a bar to a restaurant.
Good for your friend. He saw a niche and went for it. This was a natural progression for his business. Free market!
After 29 years, I'd rather have kept the clientele I had, the bar was doing well. People knew what to expect. If it is not broken, why fix it? My clientele and my staff were happy and that's what counts. As far as the 80%of people who don't smoke, there are plenty of options out there. This was my niche. I take it you have never owned a bar. It's hard work. Without money coming in, it's hard to make any expensive changes.
I work 60 hours a week as it stands and am now working more trying to make ends meet. For 29 years, I have targeted the blue collar crowd (making them feel at ease, knowing all their names, etc.) and now you are telling me to reinvent. I should reinvent the bar, into what? It's a bar! What do non-smokers want? The few people that come in (non-smokers) are outside with what is left of my smoking clientele on the patio. I think that it is like a house party, why do they all congregate in the kitchen? People like crowds. Winter is a-coming and there won't be a crowd. Though I do have patio heaters, I don't think that will be enough to draw in anyone.
Since the ban, my clientele has nowhere to go except Casinos or the local V.F.W. They tell me that they feel out of place (not dressed appropriately) in the Casinos (fancier bars) and they don't want to necessarily hang out with alot of the Vets. (good people but...dreary).
It's a sad state of affairs that a business can't cater to the people that have supported them for years. It's sad that the working man's bar is going by the wayside. People with money, in NM, still have their cigar bars but God forbid if you smoke cigarettes!
Without money coming in, it's hard to make any expensive changes.
I work 60 hours a week as it stands and am now working more trying to make ends meet. For 29 years, I have targeted the blue collar crowd (making them feel at ease, knowing all their names, etc.) and now you are telling me to reinvent. I should reinvent the bar, into what? It's a bar! What do non-smokers want?
That's the problem in this town. It's small, there's only so many things you can morph into and most of those slots are already taken. We already have enough coffee joints...which by the way is another area that took a huge hit with the no smoking thing.
But in a small town, everyone has their favorite place to go and when you try to change those dynamics, it rarely works.
It will be wonderful when all these people that are so happy not to have smokers in the place start going out a lot more, spending a lot more money and, going to all the places they never went before.
Personally, I don't think that's going to happen. I think they're going to go to the same places they've always gone and the bars that lose their smokers won't be able to count on the non-smokers taking their place.
They'll be happy no one is smoking there but...they won't go there cause it's not "their kind of place".
The no smoking laws bring more people into restaurants and bars. I live in California where smoking has been banned in bars and restaurants for years.
The places are all loaded, active, and business is fine. It's a real pleasure to be able to go into places where smoking is not allowed.
Well, first of all in California, you are not going to freeze your bum off in the middle of January. Also, being born and raised in California (and going back at least twice a year) I will say this; for maybe the first two years with the smoking ban in effect-alot of bars simply ignored it. In the bars-particularly beginning establishments who did not comply simply got a small fine. The state of California realized this and raised the penalties substantially-making it not so affordable to get caught. But, there are still bars-particularly in SF, that to this day still allow smoking regardless of the law.
Also, initially, bars were excluded from the ban until what, five years later? (with the exception of Davis)
Business has in Minneapolis has been hurt, but reports will show other wise. Bars in the Uptown area-most notably one particularly popular bar in Whitier raised their prices three times in the first year to make up for lost revenue. And another popular UPTOWN bar has seen a decline in patrons as well, commenting that smokers will opt to drink, and smoke at home. Aside from that, many bars are spending money building out door seating, investing in heat lamps, etc. to try and accommodate for smokers on cold winter nights. Those bars that do not have the space for such don't fare as well.
Personally, I think that it should be up to the proprietor to determine if the establishment is smoke free or not. As logical as that may seem, it is not the case. In case you did not know, the smoking ban in the state of Minnesota is trying to protect service industry workers from second hand smoke (no one cares about the patrons, I guess). And, as that one bartender in UPTOWN once remarked, "You don't get a job in a coal mine, and not expect to breathe coal dust." So true.
Plus, patrons can choose if they want to enter a smoking environment or not.
Anyways, this is just another example of which Lobby has the most money, regardless of what the citizens may want. At least we could have had the option to vote on it, like California did.
This is your doing... cause i know of over 50 people who own bars and they don't have to close.. drinking people will still go out and drink..
your very negative on this matter, hire bands... i am glad they are banning smoking in bars.. now i can go out and come home not smelling lke smoke and can breathe the next day.. yay
I definitely know that you are not in the bar business. A band in a small place like mine, won't work. Let alone, it's too expensive for any group that can actually play. We are a conversation bar not a club. I don't mean to sound negative but many places have gone under because of the bans. Check out Colorado's impact studies. It depends on the types of establishments they are. And for this being my doing, that's not fair I live in a small town (3 bars), not a city. People don't go out very often because most of them are Gov't and have security clearances and do not want to risk their jobs with a DWI (terminations) or having them be seen in a bar by co-workers or bosses. The ban has cut bar business, in this small county, in half! It's not like the nightlife you have in bigger areas. If you know 50 bar owners, you must come from a large urban area,more population. Most likely they are clubs not small corner hang outs.
There are plenty of venues for non-smokers. Why can't there be venues for smokers?
That's the problem in this town. It's small, there's only so many things you can morph into and most of those slots are already taken. We already have enough coffee joints...which by the way is another area that took a huge hit with the no smoking thing.
But in a small town, everyone has their favorite place to go and when you try to change those dynamics, it rarely works.
It will be wonderful when all these people that are so happy not to have smokers in the place start going out a lot more, spending a lot more money and, going to all the places they never went before.
Personally, I don't think that's going to happen. I think they're going to go to the same places they've always gone and the bars that lose their smokers won't be able to count on the non-smokers taking their place. They'll be happy no one is smoking there but...they won't go there cause it's not "their kind of place".
I agree totally! To get on track about changes in the bar scene, I think that my town will see all the bars close (all 3). There is just not enough people without smokers to fill these places. I'm sure it is nice for the non-smokers but many here hang out with the smokers and they will go to the Indian Casinos & private clubs to be with their smoking friends. Are smokers just more fun to be with?
Last edited by Castaway; 10-01-2007 at 09:26 AM..
Reason: typo
Well, first of all in California, you are not going to freeze your bum off in the middle of January. Also, being born and raised in California (and going back at least twice a year) I will say this; for maybe the first two years with the smoking ban in effect-alot of bars simply ignored it. In the bars-particularly beginning establishments who did not comply simply got a small fine. The state of California realized this and raised the penalties substantially-making it not so affordable to get caught. But, there are still bars-particularly in SF, that to this day still allow smoking regardless of the law.
Also, initially, bars were excluded from the ban until what, five years later? (with the exception of Davis)
Business has in Minneapolis has been hurt, but reports will show other wise. Bars in the Uptown area-most notably one particularly popular bar in Whitier raised their prices three times in the first year to make up for lost revenue. And another popular UPTOWN bar has seen a decline in patrons as well, commenting that smokers will opt to drink, and smoke at home. Aside from that, many bars are spending money building out door seating, investing in heat lamps, etc. to try and accommodate for smokers on cold winter nights. Those bars that do not have the space for such don't fare as well.
Personally, I think that it should be up to the proprietor to determine if the establishment is smoke free or not. As logical as that may seem, it is not the case. In case you did not know, the smoking ban in the state of Minnesota is trying to protect service industry workers from second hand smoke (no one cares about the patrons, I guess). And, as that one bartender in UPTOWN once remarked, "You don't get a job in a coal mine, and not expect to breathe coal dust." So true.
Plus, patrons can choose if they want to enter a smoking environment or not.
Anyways, this is just another example of which Lobby has the most money, regardless of what the citizens may want. At least we could have had the option to vote on it, like California did.
K-Luv;
So true! What many people don't understand is that it depends on what kind of bar you run whether you are effected by smoking bans. Many have closed their doors and others have been the recepients of an influx from other establishments, the market is smaller. One closes the others get the displaced clientele. One bar's misfortune, is another bar's fortune!
As I have asked before, is what do non-smokers want? If I need to change, what should I do in a a small bar like mine?
I definitely know that you are not in the bar business. A band in a small place like mine, won't work. Let alone, it's too expensive for any group that can actually play. We are a conversation bar not a club. I don't mean to sound negative but many places have gone under because of the bans. Check out Colorado's impact studies. It depends on the types of establishments they are. And for this being my doing, that's not fair I live in a small town (3 bars), not a city. People don't go out very often because most of them are Gov't and have security clearances and do not want to risk their jobs with a DWI (terminations) or having them be seen in a bar by co-workers or bosses. The ban has cut bar business, in this small county, in half! It's not like the nightlife you have in bigger areas. If you know 50 bar owners, you must come from a large urban area,more population. Most likely they are clubs not small corner hang outs.
There are plenty of venues for non-smokers. Why can't there be venues for smokers?
So, I wonder..... I believe there is a loophole of sorts for stores that sell tobacco. Why couldn't you sell tobacco and serve drinks on the side? I've also heard something about private clubs. How does that work? Can Native Americans buy land and have it belong to the rez/tribe and open smoking bars?
Smoking is just the issue today. The fact remains it is legal. How long will it be till we have to weigh in at a restaurant to be 'allowed' to order dessert? And there's no doubt(there was a study reported on CNN the other day) that constant exposure to fatty, sugary foods makes you want to eat them. Now there's a big surprise! And what about the poor souls who work in that environment? Don't they need to be protected too? Will it be OK with you if people who are overweight are only allowed to order 1 dish off the special diet menu? Before you laugh and think that's ridiculous, stop and think about how accepted smoking was in the 30's, 40's, and 50's.
How about the people who drive dynamite trucks or work in mines?
I believe everyone loses when any group is disenfranchised and set apart from polite society. I would feel better if they just made smoking illegal and gave up the tax revenues. I guess when they force everyone to quit they'll have to tax something else. Like maybe junk food????? Or cell phones????
Give it a few years and the Native American casinos will be the only places around where you can still eat dessert, gamble, drink, and have a smoke. Think they will be making any money?
Last edited by yellowsnow; 10-01-2007 at 10:04 AM..
Reason: spelling
So, I wonder..... I believe there is a loophole of sorts for stores that sell tobacco. Why couldn't you sell tobacco and serve drinks on the side? I've also heard something about private clubs. How does that work? Can Native Americans buy land and have it belong to the rez/tribe and open smoking bars?
Smoking is just the issue today. The fact remains it is legal. How long will it be till we have to weigh in at a restaurant to be 'allowed' to order dessert? And there's no doubt(there was a study reported on CNN the other day) that constant exposure to fatty, sugary foods makes you want to eat them. Now there's a big surprise! And what about the poor souls who work in that environment? Don't they need to be protected too? Will it be OK with you if people who are overweight are only allowed to order 1 dish off the special diet menu? Before you laugh and think that's ridiculous, stop and think about how accepted smoking was in the 30's, 40's, and 50's.
How about the people who drive dynamite trucks or work in mines?
I believe everyone loses when any group is disenfranchised and set apart from polite society. I would feel better if they just made smoking illegal and gave up the tax revenues. I guess when they force everyone to quit they'll have to tax something else. Like maybe junk food????? Or cell phones????
Give it a few years and the Native American casinos will be the only places around where you can still eat dessert, gamble, drink, and have a smoke. Think they will be making any money?
That's so true! In NM, you are only a private club if you have a charter (VFW's, Elks, etc.) You cannot become a club if you weren't an organization before ban). The world has come full circle with Indian reservations. We (Americans) have less freedoms and they ([Indians, sovereign nations) have more! They have made lots of $$'s, enough to expand.
Well all I can say is Happy October 1! I have long awaited this day in Minnesota. I have children and a wife who are not able to go into anyplace that has smoking, due to severe/chronic asthma. If we wanted to eat out we'd have to do a lot of research to make sure the place had no smoking. Many places that had smoking would have a half wall for smokers and non-smokers. IMO usually put up by a smoker who thought we couldn't smell it.
We lived out west where smoking was not allowed and were shocked when we came to Minnesota. I don't believe anyones rights are being taken away. Sorry that some feel the big bad government is coming in to try and help everyone co-exist in a more healthy environment.
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People like crowds. Winter is a-coming and there won't be a crowd. Though I do have patio heaters, I don't think that will be enough to draw in anyone.
!
I live in a small town (3 bars), not a city. People don't go out very often because most of them are Gov't and have security clearances and do not want to risk their jobs with a DWI (terminations) or having them be seen in a bar by co-workers or bosses. The ban has cut bar business, in this small county, in half! It's not like the nightlife you have in bigger areas. If you know 50 bar owners
, you must come from a large urban area,more population. Most likely they are clubs not small corner hang outs.
