Understanding the water situation... (Billings, Laurel: rental, insurance, credit)
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While it is true that CCRs and HOAs have reared their ugly head in much of Montana, there is still some land available that doesn't have it.
We were lucky enough to find a place that doesn't. 1 2/3 acres with a nice house on it. While there are CCRS, they are not excessively restrictive, and there is no HOA to enforce them anyway. I am an Amateur Radio (HAM) operator, and there is nobody to tell me that I can not put up any kind of antenna. In fact, I recently got a 48 foot antenna tower that I plan to put up next summer.
My sons and I often target shoot in the back yard.
There have been many 20 acre parcels for sale in the Bull Mountains between Billings and Roundup. I haven't looked at them to see the CCRs because at the present time I am not interested in land.
I have also seen land advertised near Bridger and Fromberg. Again, I do not knopw about CCRs or HOAs.
Redraven, what is the purpose of all these rules? Am I mistaken about the spirit of Montana? I am truly concerned this is maybe not a place I want to be.
Like I said before, I raise dogs. They mostly all live in the house but we do have our three car garage set up as luxury kennels. Heat, air, fans, lots of space. Sometimes when we leave town or we are separating dogs for breeding they are kenneled. Many HOA s want to place limitations on animals and they don't want you owning your own business from home. Our dogs are well-behaved and generally quiet (minus when they chime in with coyote howls). Anyways, my dogs are very important to me and they're like family. Im not going somewhere that I can't bring them or that someone will try to restrict me. 40 acres seems like plenty enough land to be able to hunt, shoot, or raise dogs. I'm trying to grasp this concept of regulation of legal activities.
Redraven Had no clue you were also a ham. I am south of Anaconda and our subdivision has no CCR's to speak of. I have Wire antennas up in the trees and live at the end of the road on 20+ acres. But no year round access so we migrate south for the winter. (We sit at 7000 ft elevation)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven
While it is true that CCRs and HOAs have reared their ugly head in much of Montana, there is still some land available that doesn't have it.
We were lucky enough to find a place that doesn't. 1 2/3 acres with a nice house on it. While there are CCRS, they are not excessively restrictive, and there is no HOA to enforce them anyway. I am an Amateur Radio (HAM) operator, and there is nobody to tell me that I can not put up any kind of antenna. In fact, I recently got a 48 foot antenna tower that I plan to put up next summer.
My sons and I often target shoot in the back yard.
There have been many 20 acre parcels for sale in the Bull Mountains between Billings and Roundup. I haven't looked at them to see the CCRs because at the present time I am not interested in land.
I have also seen land advertised near Bridger and Fromberg. Again, I do not knopw about CCRs or HOAs.
I hate to be negative, but I really want to be honest about what you are moving into.
In the Gallatin valley area, there are a lot of restrictions, and most of the HOAs are pretty restrictive, and they definitely can make it harder to do the things you want. We have friends who moved out of an area because they exceeded the dog limit because they were starting a dog sledding company. A lot of the places now even say what colors/materials you can use when doing your house (actually, most places). Not to get into a big thing because it is present on other threads, but most of this is a thing that has been brought in by out of staters moving in that was more prevalent in other places and has not historically been a Montana thing. You won't find this much in the cheaper areas that now people who have lived in MT for many years/generations can afford to live in, but closer to city centers you will definitely see it.
That said, you would need to look farther from town to be able to have land where you can do what you want, have dogs, shoot guns, etc. The area around Livingston and towards Big Timber makes this easier, so I would definitely look in that area more than around Bozeman. Or you could go west towards Three Forks or Whitehall. We have hunting dogs and would love to set up a kennel operation, and that is why we are familiar with the issue.
My advice is to get a really good real estate agent that is familiar with all the covenants, areas, regulations, and if you find a property that you like, have a real estate lawyer look over everything before signing papers. It is some extra money up front, but worth it in the end. And if you don't feel like when you are going through the process, or don't feel that the area is a good fit, consider looking north or east in the state. Those areas have MUCH LESS of this going on, and still have that spirit you are talking about, without all the covenants, HOA stuff, and more traditional independent Montana mindset.
You've already received some good info on the water situation, and I don't think you'll do this, but I would HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend renting for 6 months first. That time will give you much greater opportunity in terms of understanding water situations for the area, not to mention giving yourself time to find the 'right' piece of property, not just the best of what happens to be for sale on the weekend or two that you go land-hunting.
As for the HOA situation, it's very property dependent. Big ranches or parcels that have been subdivided into the 'ranchette' size you're looking at will probably come with some form of restriction. If it's an older standalone parcel you probably won't have those restrictions.
To answer your question, I'm going to cover a couple of things. First, you have to be aware of where your property is located. In the city limits residential land will have a ton of restrictions. For instance, in the Helena Valley the state has determined it is a "sensitive area" regarding firearms. So no matter how big your property is, you can't discharge a firearm at any time. This covers the entire valley. The city and county didn't have anything to do with this. The reason is due to the migrating birds being attracted to all of the man made water. All of the lush lawns attract deer. This gives people an advantage when it comes to hunting. So to stop that, the entire valley is off limits. But if you take one step outside of the valley, you can shoot on your own land all you want.
Second, most of the cities and counties are really strict when it comes to zoning. If the land you are on is zoned and residential only, you can face huge fines for operating a business from home. A person down the road for us just got a huge fine because he started a carpentry shop in his garage. His land is zoned a residential only. Raising dogs is the same as livestock. You need to make sure that the land you get allows agriculture. This alone will get you away from the HOA's as they don't cover agricultural land. You will also pay less in property taxes. This is the reason that the counties enforce this. This is the same in any state.
You need to get away from the bigger towns and in to the country to be able to do what you want.
Dia, there are those who believe HOAs and CCRs enhance property values.
IMO, they quite often destroy property values.
For instance, there was a place that my wife and I really liked, so I asked to see the CCRs. Most of them we could live with, but one was a deal breaker at that time. A one ton dually truck could not be parked in the development, because it was a "commercial vehicle"!
At the time, we had a 32 foot fifth wheel and a Dodge Ram 3500 dually to tow it.
We walked away from the property.
That dually came in very handy later, hauling hay for our horses on the mini-farm we did buy.
When you begin your serious property search, make it VERY clear to your Realtor exactly what you plan to do on YOUR property. Your Realtor should not recommend any property that has restrictions you can not live with!
My husband will be renting for six months or so until I manage to get a break from work (we had a beautiful litter of puppies today plus I've had another puppy with a corneal ulcer to handle), but the point is that he will be narrowing the search for us and I can fly back and forth a bit to help make decisions once he's done the bulk of the work.
Where we live currently is just outside a town of six thousand people. It's too close to too many people. We've never wanted a house in a cookie cutter neighborhood. Currently we do have a little acreage but we quickly realized it's not enough. We will not make that mistake again.
I'm going to be hunting up realtors in the next month or so because we've discovered they will make or break your home purchase/sale.
All of this is complicated further by the fact that we will be needing to purchase with cash because we will not have sold our house here until we've purchased there. We're not exactly rent material. We travel like a three ring circus. Horses. Dogs. Kids. Cats. Our life is sometimes sheer insanity but we sure do have fun.
My husband is planning on arriving the first part of January. He's taking several of his guns for hunting and he's got his fly fishing rod packed and his fly box ready. Not sure when/what he will be hunting or fishing but as soon as he gets a license and season opens I'm sure you'll see him there. He's going to have lots of fun. He will be quite ready to have his Labradors back with him once we all move up.
Mainly I'm just praying we can find what we need in a reasonable amount of time. Six-ish months or so.
The advice here has been absolutely invaluable and very kind of you to take the time to respond. I'm sure I'll have many other questions for the future and this will be my first stop. Thank you again.
There are two types of land partials available in the area you are considering. 1)--Those zoned for agriculture. 2)--Those zoned for residential country 20 acres or large partials, that really are just for residential homes, etc. They are not properties for what you want, and a large percentage of them are impossible to have a well, etc., due to no water being down there, or it is too far down to drill a well to through all the rock below the property. If you live in those areas, then you will end up with a pickup, that has a big plastic tank permanently mounted on the back to haul water to the property and dump it into a cistern.
With horses, you need land that is zoned for Agriculture, and not one of those broken up for just living in the country. These acreages, often have some water rights for irrigation. If you want to irrigate, you need property with irrigation water rights. To make sure it is O.K. to use the water for irrigation, you need to contact the county to find out if you can or cannot. You may not even be able to draw water from a stream or river passing down the middle of the property. A lot of the properties you see advertised a distance from the towns in Montana, are considered recreation property, and you cannot even build a home on them. People use them to take a recreation vehicle or tent and have some weekend and vacation time on them. No water available. They call these 5 mile to water property, which means you may find it 5 miles down if you drill, or you may have a source to haul it from 5 miles away. Some of those would be more aptly called 50 miles to water property.
You would do best, finding and buying a farm that is zoned for agriculture, and has good water rights. That is what you really want to buy, for the needs you have in the area you are desiring to live. The farm may have existing buildings on it, or some will be vacant and farmed by the farmer driving out to the farm.
A place to start looking is www.montanalandmagazine.com This is a place to find the kind of Realtors that deals in the land of the type you want. The last thing you want, is a residential real estate agent, as they really do not have the answers you want. You want a farm and land specialist, and that magazine will show you the ones that handle the type of property you need. They can tell you what kind of property is available, and what the cost for it is. They know about irrigation and water laws out in the country, and can get you any answers you need on this type of property.
I spent from 1972 till I finally retired in the investment/farm and ranch/ and commercial property brokerage business. The horror stories I heard from people that had worked with residential real estate brokers to buy the type of property you want were legendary. Only a few brokers/agents understand agriculture land like you want. The others sell people those country estate properties along with homes in towns and cities. I grew up on a very, very large ranch in Northern California so understand land used for agriculture purposes.
I believe you are not looking for regular business property, but property that involves livestock and dogs. That is why I am trying to give you a guideline to find what you need. Those country living properties with all the regulations, covenants, and HOA rules are not what you want.
Caution. The type of property you are seeking, is not cheap. Water rights can cost as much as the land itself. So when they are combined, they are not cheap.
A few telephone calls to those ranch specialists in that land magazine which by the way has the latest issues on line in full, so you can pursue typical properties available and the agents that handle those properties.
Oldtrader....oddly enough my husband picked up a copy of that magazine while he was there and brought it home. I'll be looking it up online now, for sure. Thank you for your input.
I've been so very blessed by all the collective wisdom and experiences on this page. Every single one of you are much appreciated and all your opinions are valued. Thank you again and I look forward to hearing anything more that anyone else has to add.
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