Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am not surprised about the supremacy existing within a minority of Anglophones. South Africa was like that, with the minority having a superiority complex against the majority of the population.
As for what you said about expecting to speak French, I made a friend from Quebec(actually, I have two friends from Quebec now). They are both Francophones and were delighted to find that I could speak French, but still insisted to speak to me in English. Then again, they were in the USA, but still, I kind of like speaking French with them.
Another thing I know about the language situation in Quebec is this. There is another segment of Montreal's population, Allophones, people who speak something else besides French or English. This is mainly with the immigrant population coming from places like Egypt, Italy, Greece, and other nations that do not speak French or English. There was a law in the 1970's stating that if a student was not fluent in English among arrival to Quebec, said student would be required to enter the French-speaking schools. Many people were aware that many of the immigrants who didn't speak French would choose English as the language of choice because many see Quebec as part of Canada, and therefore, part of an Anglophone society. For this reason, many immigrants chose English-speaking school because they felt they would have more opportunities speaking English. When Quebec was having referendums, the vote often came out as "not in favor of independence". The most likely persons to vote "no" were mainly immigrants and the Anglophone population, and even a few Francophones. Many Quebecois realized this and lobbied for a law to make immigrants speak French, particularly children. The reasoning was "we can't loose anymore votes to immigrants". In the mid 1990's, the vote was a dead heat, but still "no". Jacques Parizeau blamed "the ethnic vote". National Geographic came out with an article in November 1997 about Quebec's situation. On the last page, there was a photo of a child(possibly Haitian or African) standing next to a wall with the word "oui" painted on it. The caption stated that if Quebec wanted to gain independence, it would have to gain the trust of the immigrant population.
Other events included Passover food removed from the shelves, called "matzohgate" because the ingredients were listed in Hebrew and English, but not French. Many people have packed up and left Quebec for Toronto and other cities for economic advancement. Some people feared becoming second-class citizens if Quebec became independent. Many companies left Montreal amidst the politcal turmoil. In the November 1997 National Geographic article "Quebec's Quandary" Montreal was said to have the highest poverty rate in Canada and that unemployment was skyrocketing due to political issues.
Well, it took quite a bit of time and effort to get there and I was expecting to use some French but unless it was in writing, it was in English ("Cafe Starbucks" was a cool twist on "Starbucks Coffee" though). That's okay; that's why there's France where, I hear, they won't speak to you unless you speak French -- and France French at that, not Canadaian or Louisianan French.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte
Another thing I know about the language situation in Quebec is this. There is another segment of Montreal's population, Allophones, people who speak something else besides French or English. This is mainly with the immigrant population coming from places like Egypt, Italy, Greece, and other nations that do not speak French or English. There was a law in the 1970's stating that if a student was not fluent in English among arrival to Quebec, said student would be required to enter the French-speaking schools. Many people were aware that many of the immigrants who didn't speak French would choose English as the language of choice because many see Quebec as part of Canada, and therefore, part of an Anglophone society. For this reason, many immigrants chose English-speaking school because they felt they would have more opportunities speaking English. When Quebec was having referendums, the vote often came out as "not in favor of independence". The most likely persons to vote "no" were mainly immigrants and the Anglophone population, and even a few Francophones. Many Quebecois realized this and lobbied for a law to make immigrants speak French, particularly children. The reasoning was "we can't loose anymore votes to immigrants". In the mid 1990's, the vote was a dead heat, but still "no". Jacques Parizeau blamed "the ethnic vote". National Geographic came out with an article in November 1997 about Quebec's situation. On the last page, there was a photo of a child(possibly Haitian or African) standing next to a wall with the word "oui" painted on it. The caption stated that if Quebec wanted to gain independence, it would have to gain the trust of the immigrant population.
Other events included Passover food removed from the shelves, called "matzohgate" because the ingredients were listed in Hebrew and English, but not French. Many people have packed up and left Quebec for Toronto and other cities for economic advancement. Some people feared becoming second-class citizens if Quebec became independent. Many companies left Montreal amidst the politcal turmoil. In the November 1997 National Geographic article "Quebec's Quandary" Montreal was said to have the highest poverty rate in Canada and that unemployment was skyrocketing due to political issues.
But it always sounds great, and that is the goal of French (thanks college linguistics).
I would hope someone says enough is enough and brings the businesses back to Montreal. It's such a hidden gem of a city and one of the best on the entire continent. Language, culture and business can all co-exist with multiple languages. Just look at Europe, South Africa (11 official languages), Singapore and various other countries.
And its not the language with the power that is going to win. It's the language with the money. English split and took its dollar with it.
Well, it took quite a bit of time and effort to get there and I was expecting to use some French but unless it was in writing, it was in English ("Cafe Starbucks" was a cool twist on "Starbucks Coffee" though). That's okay; that's why there's France where, I hear, they won't speak to you unless you speak French -- and France French at that, not Canadaian or Louisianan French.
But it always sounds great, and that is the goal of French (thanks college linguistics).
I would hope someone says enough is enough and brings the businesses back to Montreal. It's such a hidden gem of a city and one of the best on the entire continent. Language, culture and business can all co-exist with multiple languages. Just look at Europe, South Africa (11 official languages), Singapore and various other countries.
And its not the language with the power that is going to win. It's the language with the money. English split and took its dollar with it.
I am going to be as candid as I can about this. I see Montreal as having as certain mystique to is. I like speaking French(although I don't have alot of opportunities to do so) and I like certain things about French culture. With that in mind, I also see Montreal as a city that did alot of things wrong. Montreal was a major banking centre, and the largest city in Canada(a title now relinquished to Toronto). I have a split view on this. If Quebec wanted to have its independence, at least it could have done so more democratically. The language laws and other laws that made democratic voting nearly impossible were not good for business. I don't believe it was so much the independence movement that was the issue. It was more an unwillingness to work with others that was the issue. Then again, I am not surprised how things worked out. The majority French-speaking population has always felt marginalized by the English-speaking population. Much of the commerce was run by the Anglophone population. Many Francophones felt that independence would be the best solution. It was left to a vote. The vote fell through. Realizing many English-speaking citizens and non-Francophones would vote against independence, many who were in charge voted for tougher language laws, including making students who didn't speak English attend French schools. Basically, the democratic process eroded in a sense. Many people and investments started leaving Quebec because the business climate was less friendly. I don't say it was so much the independence movement, but more, it was stubborness on one end combined with capital on the other end.
I admire the fact that French keep everything purely French. Using the same alphabet system doesn't mean French has to borrow English words directly. Chinese doesn't use the Latin alphabets and still translate many English words pretty precisely. For example, the word “computer" will be "electric brain" in Chinese, and telephone will be "electric talk" (unlike in Japanese, the translations are purely sound-based). Do you think Chinese should simply use the English words as well. That's the beauty about these languages: the absorb new concepts and create new words out of its own system, instead of mechanically borrowing.
When you say French lack words to express succinctly, you are entirely wrong. French expression is usually longer because it is more precise than English. English is often times more succinct, but ends up being ambiguous. If you go to the dictionary, one English word can have so many meanings (French would have different words corresponding to them), and so many words can mean pretty much the same thing as well (French tends to have less). In my opinion, French is a much better language than English to be used as an international business/legal language, let's not even mention all those English idioms and slangs which don't make much sense and are extremely difficult for foreigners to master. (for example, a verb + different preposition leads to dozens of meaning). As a native English speaker, you may not realize, English can be quite confusing and French is a much more friendlier and precise language!
I would hope someone says enough is enough and brings the businesses back to Montreal. It's such a hidden gem of a city and one of the best on the entire continent.
Montreal is the most beautiful city in the whole north America, but is is also the most corrupt city in the whole north America (yes, I know Chicago, New Orleans, and most New Jersey cities could give them a run for their money). It is a place where the politicians, mafia and the unions have conspired for years to stick to the taxpayers. If the city had good governance, it would have been one of the top destination for business in Canada, but due to high taxes and corruption most businesses choose to set up their businesses somewhere else. The politicians drove a lot of businesses away in the 70's with their separation campaign, they basically made it difficult for anglophone companies to do business with all their french requirements.
Well, it took quite a bit of time and effort to get there and I was expecting to use some French but unless it was in writing, it was in English ("Cafe Starbucks" was a cool twist on "Starbucks Coffee" though).
Don't forget something France is not Quebec, in France "Starbucks Coffee" is called "Starbucks Coffee"
KFC is called KFC
Quote:
They even have a language police, L'Academie Francaise, that many other languages, especially our vast-reaching, senseless yet creative English, doesn't have; French has about 250,000 words compared to English's 800,000 and it's constantly growing (especially considering that English is a thug that finds and corners other languages, beats them up, takes their good words, then leaves them for dead). For example, in France the phrase le weekend is shunned in favor of le fin de la semane. Le weekend sounds too English.
The Academie Francais don't have any power and effect on everyday language.
Everybody use weekends in France, I never heard someone saying fin de la semaine for the weekends.
Usually if we say "la fin de la semaine" it is for thurday and friday while Weekends mean saturday and sunday.
When you say French lack words to express succinctly, you are entirely wrong. French expression is usually longer because it is more precise than English. English is often times more succinct, but ends up being ambiguous. If you go to the dictionary, one English word can have so many meanings (French would have different words corresponding to them), and so many words can mean pretty much the same thing as well (French tends to have less). In my opinion, French is a much better language than English to be used as an international business/legal language, let's not even mention all those English idioms and slangs which don't make much sense and are extremely difficult for foreigners to master. (for example, a verb + different preposition leads to dozens of meaning). As a native English speaker, you may not realize, English can be quite confusing and French is a much more friendlier and precise language!
Wow. Great way to spout off an opinion. Who are you to tell me I'm wrong? And people wonder why people dislike anything related to France.
If French was able to express things so well, why does English have 4 times as many words? When an English speaking child tells me his dad works "up over that big old hill", how does on express that in French word-for-word? It is that hill, it is big, it is old and he went up and over it. I don't remember French liking chains of prepositions like that. How about "eating crow" or "the devil's beating his wife ('while his grandmother is laughing' is an older Germanic addition) or "six in one hand, half a dozen in the other", "needle in a haystack", "quiet as a church mouse", "so quiet you can hear a rat **** on cotton", "get on the good foot"? None of these translate directly ergo my forementioned point.
If I was a researching working on the cure to AIDS and you asked me why I don't have it 20 years later, I would tell you "it's very hard to find the cure; it's tougher than looking for a needle in a haystack." English allows me to use phrases like that and still maintain comprehensibility (that may not be a word; but English allows me to make them up). The French translation would read as a drier sentence. Due to their smaller word base, one phrase eg "quand on parle du loup, il apperai" can have multiple meanings besides just "speak of the devil and he appears" or literally "when we speak of the devil, he will appear".
Let's not talk of the complication of French's past tenses. If French was the superior language, everyone from your local criminal to Osama bin Laden would know it, so the proof is in the pudding. Both of them can speak English, I'm sure. Every terrorist in the world can as well. So can 320,000,000 native speakers of English versus 67,000,000 native speakers of French. Those are just the facts. That's not calling English perfect because it has a range of issue like historical spellings (good, foot, boot, flood, blood...)
AS FOR MONTREAL, it would be sad to see something like language wars ruin this gem of a town. But if it is more corrupt that New Orleans et al, I will be shocked. Losing all your finance jobs is breathtaking. Have they backed away from these stringent language requirements or are they still on the books?
Wow. Great way to spout off an opinion. Who are you to tell me I'm wrong? And people wonder why people dislike anything related to France.
If French was able to express things so well, why does English have 4 times as many words? When an English speaking child tells me his dad works "up over that big old hill", how does on express that in French word-for-word? It is that hill, it is big, it is old and he went up and over it. I don't remember French liking chains of prepositions like that. How about "eating crow" or "the devil's beating his wife ('while his grandmother is laughing' is an older Germanic addition) or "six in one hand, half a dozen in the other", "needle in a haystack", "quiet as a church mouse", "so quiet you can hear a rat **** on cotton", "get on the good foot"? None of these translate directly ergo my forementioned point.
If I was a researching working on the cure to AIDS and you asked me why I don't have it 20 years later, I would tell you "it's very hard to find the cure; it's tougher than looking for a needle in a haystack." English allows me to use phrases like that and still maintain comprehensibility (that may not be a word; but English allows me to make them up). The French translation would read as a drier sentence. Due to their smaller word base, one phrase eg "quand on parle du loup, il apperai" can have multiple meanings besides just "speak of the devil and he appears" or literally "when we speak of the devil, he will appear".
Let's not talk of the complication of French's past tenses. If French was the superior language, everyone from your local criminal to Osama bin Laden would know it, so the proof is in the pudding. Both of them can speak English, I'm sure. Every terrorist in the world can as well. So can 320,000,000 native speakers of English versus 67,000,000 native speakers of French. Those are just the facts. That's not calling English perfect because it has a range of issue like historical spellings (good, foot, boot, flood, blood...)
AS FOR MONTREAL, it would be sad to see something like language wars ruin this gem of a town. But if it is more corrupt that New Orleans et al, I will be shocked. Losing all your finance jobs is breathtaking. Have they backed away from these stringent language requirements or are they still on the books?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
